What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

[quote RainbowBridge67]@Hasselhoffsheadband

"How does a woman who finds herself pregnant as a result of rape identify out if her womanhood?"

Womanhood =/= reproductive function[/quote]
You didn't answer the question.

Also, what a disgustingly disingenuous way to divert actually, you hate women so much that you can't even bring yourself to show sympathy for women who are impregnated by rape, because you are too busy comparing them to males.

[quote RainbowBridge67]@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

"1. My testoterone levels are nothing like a transwomans"

A trans woman on HRT is likely to have lower testosterone levels than you.

"2. A transwoman on average is much stronger than a woman but there is wide variety in strength between women"

That's plainly not true, most trans women aren't strong or athletic at all, and the few that are are given disproportionate attention on for the sake of whipping up a moral panic.[/quote]
well there's goes a mouthful of G & T

Dude your lack of knowledge is funny!

@Wombat2WombatCombat one day soon it will be just like in that Tom Cruise film where cameras constantly scan your eyes to offer you personalised ads. And there will be one outside each toilet and a klaxon will go off that says “how sad we’ve come to this, here is a person who respects half the population so little their entitled arse is entering the wrong toilet” and the gestapo will turn up and everyone will be like well at least there’s a solid criteria, the eye scanners never lie. Suite we’re in a police state because a couple of men couldn’t take no for an answer, but at least wombat has an objective answer and means of stopping entry to a single sex space that doesn’t just require engaging your brain and performing basic human decency.

@RainbowBridge67

Honestly, I genuinely can't wait for a uterus transplant to allow a trans woman to give bitth, just to cross that particular milestone and take the reproductive function argument away from you.

I think you just said the quiet bit out loud, mate.

@RainbowBridge67

Honestly, I genuinely can't wait for a uterus transplant to allow a trans woman to give bitth, just to cross that particular milestone and take the reproductive function argument away from you.

Oh Christ!

I would say I'm out and step away but I'm kind of fascinated by what you are going to say next....

[quote RainbowBridge67]@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

"1. My testoterone levels are nothing like a transwomans"

A trans woman on HRT is likely to have lower testosterone levels than you.

"2. A transwoman on average is much stronger than a woman but there is wide variety in strength between women"

That's plainly not true, most trans women aren't strong or athletic at all, and the few that are are given disproportionate attention on for the sake of whipping up a moral panic.[/quote]
You're wrong

www.bumc.bu.edu/busm/2018/02/20/medicine-alone-does-not-completely-suppress-testosterone-levels-among-transgender-women/#:~:text=The%20Endocrine%20Society%20guidelines%20on%20monitoring%20transgender%20women,testosterone%20levels%20within%20the%20usual%20female%20physiologic%20range.

Even assuming that by trans we mean people who are medically altering their bodies.

Most women aren't strong or athletic either so really we need to compare average male body (or male body after attempts to reduce testosterone) with average female body.

It's not moral panic to not want to be locked up with a man and what hideous thing to say.

You appear to be suggesting that transwomen should be in female prisons as long as they don't work out? Surely that's not what you mean?

Just a FYI

Trans women don't receive HRT

They receive synthetic cross sex hormones.

HRT implies that you are replacing something that was there initially and has stopped working.
In this case you are not. You're actually introducing something foreign to the body in those quantities.

And yes we all know that females produce testosterone. It doesn't make them males, any more than males taking oestrogen are females.
HTH.

[quote RainbowBridge67]@RVN123

"Seems to fit a lot of the time. You really seem to hate women despite wanting to identify as one."

Why do you assume that despising your transphobic clique specifically, and not caring what you think, is the same thing as despising women?[/quote]
Well you want to tell us how we identify and suggest that trying to protect women from rape is inciting moral panic. You also refuse to acknowledge that women are oppressed because of their biology not their identity.

A trans woman on HRT is likely to have lower testosterone levels than you.

And this is a false claim.

A transitioned male with no testes may be recieving less testosterone than a female, but that would be dangerous to their health.

You really need to look at the research that has been done around sport. And in fact, there was a transitioned male specialist who worked with another transitioned male to produce 'breast milk' who even declared that suppressants were unreliable and even though they, as a transitioned male medical specialist with the skills to do so, chose not to experiment on themselves. They chose not to due to the unpredictability of suppressing testosterone (they said) and did not want to feed testosterone laden breast milk to their own child. But did the experiment for someone who had no such qualms about it.

So, no. You are making a false claim here.

@Hasselhoffsheadband

I simply rejected your premise. You suggested reproductive function and ability to get pregnant is inherent and inseparable from womanhood. I disagree.

Come on wombat, we're nearing the end of the thread and you've yet to tell me what a woman has in common with a transwoman that she doesn't have in common with a man.

I think I’m about to “cis splain”, but on the topic of suppression of testosterone, the addition of “HRT”, which RVN correctly states is better described as synthetic cross sex hormones, wouldn’t be the part that would lower testoerone. You’d need a testosterone blocker for that, too, or an orchiectomy.

So no, “taking HRT” wouldn’t give a MTF transexual person lower testoerone than a female person.

Important to be correct, even when you think you’re just owning the silly mummies, cause it’d be embarrassing if they understood the transition process more than you do, wouldn’t it 😬

[quote RainbowBridge67]@Hasselhoffsheadband

I simply rejected your premise. You suggested reproductive function and ability to get pregnant is inherent and inseparable from womanhood. I disagree.[/quote]
But you don't want to do away with the idea of 'womanhood'? So what is womanhood then?

Wtf is this thread.

Never argue with a fool…

@RainbowBridge67

Honestly, I genuinely can't wait for a uterus transplant to allow a trans woman to give bitth, just to cross that particular milestone and take the reproductive function argument away from you.

Oh wow!

They just keep on coming don't they. It is like a walking pseudo science encyclopedia.

You suggested reproductive function and ability to get pregnant is inherent and inseparable from womanhood.

This is a utter misreading of what has been explained here, patiently and repeatedly. This is no one's argument. Womanhood is the state of being an adult human female, whether or not your reproductive systems function correctly or not. That's all. It's not complicated despite all the enraged frantic posts to try to say otherwise.

[quote RainbowBridge67]@Hasselhoffsheadband

I simply rejected your premise. You suggested reproductive function and ability to get pregnant is inherent and inseparable from womanhood. I disagree.[/quote]
I nominate rainbow and wombat for a month long internship in a maternity ward - anywhere in the world (even any century). Then they can pop back onto their favourite corner of the internet and advise women what type of humans they observed having all those babies

"""
A trans woman on HRT is likely to have lower testosterone levels than you."""

Look ladies! They're actually doing the womaning BETTER than us! TW are MORE of a woman than an ACTUAL biological female.

Hurrah!

Wow, all these arguments about DSD and sex not being binary and woman doesn't exist as a sex, but feelings and wombenvy.... just to be able to hound women out of womens single sex spaces. The powertrip, the entitlement, the rage when women say they disagree... remind me that if these people walk in, I need to run out as fast as I can.

[quote RainbowBridge67]@Hasselhoffsheadband

I simply rejected your premise. You suggested reproductive function and ability to get pregnant is inherent and inseparable from womanhood. I disagree.[/quote]
The continuation of the human species would tend to disagree.

Unless you think that all the babies throughout history were accidents as people just randomly shagged other people without knowing if they were male or female and hoped for the best, until we discovered chromosomes?

It’s a theory, I guess.

You know the story Eddie Izzard tells about how he had a run in with a group of teenage girls in the women’s toilets the first time he cross dressed in public?

How did he know they were teenage girls, and not teenage boys who happened to be cross dressing also, and hanging out in the women’s toilets for the hell of it?

And how did the girls know he was a man, despite the women’s clothing he was wearing?

Because the way he tells it, he wasn’t in any doubt as to their sex, nor they as to his. He knew that they knew he was a man, because it was so unmistakably obvious. Like it’s the kind of thing that’s just totally obvious to the average human being, really.

And of course he also knew he was 100%, unequivocally male (in the factual, biological sense, obvs; clearly not interested in his modern day “I’ve got girl genes and boy genes” gender-woo revisionism) and he knew he didn’t belong there and was transgressing, and he didn’t give a shiny shit.

Much like some people here who see women’s and girls’ boundaries as a challenge to overcome rather than a social contract to be respected and adhered to.

Remind me again, which sex class is it that has been oppressed for millennia? And which sex class is it that has done/is still doing the oppressing?

And therefore, which sex class does it benefit to have spaces of protection from the other? And which sex class does it benefit to pretend there is no material difference and so boundaries can be abolished?

@RainbowBridge67

Honestly, I genuinely can't wait for a uterus transplant to allow a trans woman to give bitth, just to cross that particular milestone and take the reproductive function argument away from you.

Can I just... highlight this post again, for its sheer educational value to all lurkers?

@RainbowBridge67

Honestly, I genuinely can't wait for a uterus transplant to allow a trans woman to give bitth, just to cross that particular milestone and take the reproductive function argument away from you.

You do know that a successful pregnancy requires more than just a uterus don't you?

You've demonstrated in numerous responses that you have very little understanding of biology in either female or male bodies, and a shocking lack of understanding of hormone replacement if you really are undertaking it. How on earth have you given informed consent to a medical treatment that you don't appear to understand?

Do you understand the long term affects of female hormone replacement therapy on a male body?

I'm actually concerned for you if you don't because you are increasing your risk of several very serious diseases and increasing the likelihood of early death. If you have not been made to understand that then I worry that you have been given poor medical treatment.