What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

@Hasselhoffsheadband

"Woman" is a gender identity.

Erm, woman is not an 'identity'. How very offensive to those women who cannot and have never been able to 'identify' out of their womanhood.

If they want to, they totally can, actually. That's kind of the idea.

Of course, no one has ever suggested it would solve all the problems. In case no one told you this, being trans is not exactly a cakewalk.

It has everything to do with how we define sex, and how we define "female"/"woman".

We already have definitions for those terms - again, it's very offensive of you to pretend that we don't know who are the men and who are the women, when you think about how men have and continue to oppress women at such a disproportionate rate. How do they know who the women are if its oh so difficult to tell?

"Cis does not mean 'not trans' - 'woman' does."

Uh, no? Also, are you under the impression trans women are the only trans people?*

No but we're talking about women here and I think we're all sensible enough to know that this would also apply to men - perhaps not...

"Woman" is a gender identity. Calling yourself a woman is stating your gender identity. No one is assuming anything, people are correctly pointing out you have the same gender identity as theme you were assigned at birth.

No it's really not but if it were then I am not a woman and I guess I am therefore trans? In which case do my arguments for transwomen not encroaching on women's spaces carry any more weight? Do I have to start using the men's toilets now? There are going to be a hell of a lot of women in there though as most of us will be in the same boat. What will this mean for men who feel some affiliation with their internalised identity of women once most of us are in the men's loos? I do joke but genuinely, if woman is an identity, I am not one.

n your prison cell situation, the similarity could be due to a number of things (assuming will are still in the ‘binary sex is nonviable’ circumstance) - it could be biological factors like strength or testosterone levels
I'm pretty weak tbh. Do you think I can only share with other arthritic middle-aged women? Do you think we should we should measure my cellmates and my testosterone levels? Transwomens testosterone levels are not like womens so you think they should not be in women's prisons?

or some other physical characteristic or characteristics, a shared gender and way of referring to oneself and worldview I have no gender so do I need a separate prison for no gender people? As there are apparently 100's of genders, do we need 100's of prisons? When you say worldview are we talking music tastes, political affiliation, leisure interests?

None of the above criteria make for sensible categories nor do they show what I have in common with a transwoman than I don't have with a man. Can you answer that question again.

and if a male/female distinction is needed still, it would done on the basis of gender, which seems to be far easier to set criteria for and determine

I fished this nugget out of the jibber jabber stew from OP upthread, as it piqued my interest.

I don’t have a gender. If I had to adhere to the theology of genderism, I suppose I would be “agender”. Whoops- I guess it’s not so “easy” after all? What about gender fluid? Gender free? Gender fuck? Neptuian gender (we had one such person here a few weeks back). What about them, eh??

If you’re posting here in support of diverse gender identities, I think you may just accidentally have done a transphobia 😱

To whom should we report you for your reeducation?

What an extremely silly, yet extremely enlightening thread.

*And how are trans people not becoming part of that tiny number of people who can't be easily categorized over the course of medical transition?

If "female sex chromosomes" aren't a requirement here, why should they be a requirement for trans women?*

Their cells don't change so they can be easily categorised. You have shown an article about someone who has both male and female cells. Transwomen if not DSD (and transmen if not DSD) can be easily categorised and moreover other than superficial changes caused by surgery still have a body which is compatible with that cellular biology.

@Hasselhoffsheadband

It has everything to do with how we define sex, and how we define "female"/"woman".

We already have definitions for those terms - again, it's very offensive of you to pretend that we don't know who are the men and who are the women, when you think about how men have and continue to oppress women at such a disproportionate rate. How do they know who the women are if its oh so difficult to tell?

Define "female" in a way that doesn't exclude intersex/DSD people or doesn't refer to abstract hypotheticals like "gamete potential"

[quote RainbowBridge67]@Helleofabore

"But yes, your sex is coded in your cells."

So, this woman who has given birth is a male, since the sex coded in her cells is "male":
www.independent.co.uk/news/science/mostly-male-woman-gives-birth-to-twins-in-medical-miracle-10033528.html

Or does sex magically stop being coded in cells in this instance? Or is it "offensive" to even question your deeply flawed framework?[/quote]
You keep posting an article behind a paywall. Keep on posting it. I cannot read it.

However, is a woman with a DSD? And despite having '95% 'male' chromosomes' did her body have testes? Or was there a female reproductive system in her body and no testes or ovaries?

You are again using a person with a medical condition to try to force open the meaning of male and female to suit your own purpose.

How about you find an original source article that does not require a paywall to read and maybe we will take you seriously?

For the moment though, you are simply agressively utilising someone's medical condition to suit your own purposes. That is pretty fucking offensive.

If they want to, they totally can, actually. That's kind of the idea.

How does a woman who finds herself pregnant as a result of rape identify out if her womanhood?

How does a baby who is about to be murdered because she is not a boy identify out of her female state?

How does a girl who gets shot by the Taliban because she wanted to go to school but can because she has a vagina identify out of her womanhood?

How does a woman who was trafficked at 9 years old to be abused by men for money which will go to her male pimp, all to the chimes of how empowering 'sex work' is for women, identify out of her womanhood?

You don't have the first clue what you are talking about and your posts are dripping with misogyny.

Fuck me is this performative “but how we can wee teellllll” ridiculousness still going on?

*If they want to, they totally can, actually. That's kind of the idea.

Of course, no one has ever suggested it would solve all the problems. In case no one told you this, being trans is not exactly a cakewalk.*

Are you seriously suggesting that women in Afghanistan can just identify out of being a woman and get a job an an education? Are you seriously suggesting that women in the UK can just identify out of a women and be paid the same as a man? Are you seriously suggesting that a woman in an abusive relationship can just identify out of being a woman and no longer be more vulnerable to domestic abuse. Are you serious?! Being a woman is not a piece of cake either fgs.

Come on wombat - what do I have in common with a transwoman that I don't with a man. Succinct answer please.

"Define "female" in a way that doesn't exclude intersex/DSD people or doesn't refer to abstract hypotheticals like "gamete potential""

Someone posted a handy chart up thread. Have a look. It lists all the possible combinations.

Define "female" in a way that doesn't exclude intersex/DSD people or doesn't refer to abstract hypotheticals like "gamete potential"

Why is gamete potential an 'abstract hypothetical'?

I'm pretty sure that when Wayne Couzens was driving around at night looking for a victim to rape and murder and he spotted poor Sarah Everard, he stopped and targeted her based on her 'gamete potential' - ie. He recognised, even when driving on the road at night, that she was a woman walking along the street.

It's funny how humans are able to do this isn't it?

You can just “identify out” of being a woman, can you, eh?

Could I have identified out of the issues I had with endometriosis, adenomyosis, hysterectomy, and the disabling chronic conditions that I have a result of the menopause, @RainbowBridge67?

Do you have any idea what a fatuous and tone deaf comment that is?

Do you ever stop to think about the fact that women have a physical, corporeal reality? A “lived experience”, if you will? An inescapable biological body that experiences particular things due to its femaleness?

Take all of these angels dancing on the heads of pins and shove them. Please.

Then think about FGM, sex selective abortion, and how the Taliban like to,treat women and give your over privileged head a good long wobble.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

"Their cells don't change so they can be easily categorised."

Cells do not dictate sex, as we've already established on account of a woman who has given birth having "male" cells and XY chromosomes.

"You have shown an article about someone who has both male and female cells."

95% male.

As for the 5%... you do realize that that's basically everyone, right? Every man has some "female" cells, it's not actually "every cell in one's body" that's strictly one sex or another.

Do you think women don't have natural testosterone, too?

What was unusual wasn't the cells, but rather the woman being physiologically female (not on "cellular level" though) despite having male genetics.

Go on wombat. Do try and answer, bearing in mind that

1. My testoterone levels are nothing like a transwomans
2. A transwoman on average is much stronger than a woman but there is wide variety in strength between women
3. As per your definitions, I have no gender - and neither do most women
4. in the absence of having a gender as per your definitions, my worldview is as likely to be similar to a mans as to a transwomans

So, what do I have in common with a transwoman that I don't have with a man?

Our lurking jaws are collectively on the floor reading this thread

@Hasselhoffsheadband

"How does a woman who finds herself pregnant as a result of rape identify out if her womanhood?"

Womanhood =/= reproductive function

I heard this from a wacky comedy film the other week, it was nothing to do with trans women, but I thought it was pretty accurate.

"They HATE us cause they AIN'T us".

Seems to fit a lot of the time. You really seem to hate women despite wanting to identify as one. You don't care what women think or feel. You actually said that upthread before you deny that this gem came from your own ramblings.
And yet all these mental gymnastics and contortions of language and biology to try to identify with our class.

It's all very bizarre.

Right.

Woman had Swyer Syndrome. She did indeed have a Difference in Sex development. With a functioning uterus and I assume a vagina since she was married and had no idea she had Swyer Syndrome.

That she could actually carry any pregnancy would indicate that despite (95% of her 'chromosomes') her body was formed around the production of large gametes. Otherwise there is NO way she could have carried any pregnancy to full term. EVER. There simply would not have been the fully connected systems to do so. That you do not realise this, is pretty clear you have never in your life carried a foetus. Because it is more than just a baby in a bag. It requires a fully connected system to ensure the correct processes happen at the correct time.

I repeat, that you don't understand this is YOUR issue. Not ours.

This case does not disprove that female bodies are formed around the production of large gametes, whether this occurs or not, or ever has occurred. In fact, it fully supports that definition. Otherwise, this pregnancy would have never have produced these children.

There is NO MENTION of streak testes in that article. So, YOU have no idea whether she had streak testes or streak ovaries - all the reporter has recorded is 'no ovaries' which could mean anything.

Instead, you have posted this link repeated as a gotcha. FUCKING OFFENSIVE to use this woman's medical condition for your own gain the way you have been.

Cells do not dictate sex, as we've already established on account of a woman who has given birth having "male" cells and XY chromosomes.

"You have shown an article about someone who has both male and female cells."

95% male.

As for the 5%... you do realize that that's basically everyone, right? Every man has some "female" cells, it's not actually "every cell in one's body" that's strictly one sex or another.*

Please provide evidence that 95/5 is not highly unusual

Do you think women don't have natural testosterone, too?

I know that they do. Female bodies are designed to produce testoterone albeit at much lower levels than males. This does not make them men.

What was unusual wasn't the cells, but rather the woman being physiologically female (not on "cellular level" though) despite having male genetics.

I can't get passed the paywall but she needed IVF as she had no ovaries. so a DSD, not simply physiologically female.

As for the 5%... you do realize that that's basically everyone, right? Every man has some "female" cells, it's not actually "every cell in one's body" that's strictly one sex or another.

Oh honey.....no.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

"1. My testoterone levels are nothing like a transwomans"

A trans woman on HRT is likely to have lower testosterone levels than you.

"2. A transwoman on average is much stronger than a woman but there is wide variety in strength between women"

That's plainly not true, most trans women aren't strong or athletic at all, and the few that are are given disproportionate attention on for the sake of whipping up a moral panic.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Go on wombat. Do try and answer, bearing in mind that

1. My testoterone levels are nothing like a transwomans
2. A transwoman on average is much stronger than a woman but there is wide variety in strength between women
3. As per your definitions, I have no gender - and neither do most women
4. in the absence of having a gender as per your definitions, my worldview is as likely to be similar to a mans as to a transwomans

So, what do I have in common with a transwoman that I don't have with a man?

Are you there wombat? Can you answer this or do you think prisons perhaps should just be mixed sex?