What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

[quote RainbowBridge67]@bishophaha

You're nowhere as clever as you think.[/quote]
Ah, we've sunk to this level of debate. Go on then, how clever do I think I am? As clever as someone who claims to know what a stranger on an internet forum is thinking?

Take your transphobia and be off with you.

This is all you have, and we can all see it.

Actually it's literally based on your feelings

Then you are not carrying out safeguarding responsibly or correctly.

Look up what transition means. It means changing from one state to another

Unambiguously define what those two states are.

Literally it's based on a statistical analysis of available data leading to probability assessments

@bishophaha

Not by law in the UK, unless someone can share some other piece of legislation I’m unaware of that contradicts this

@Wombat2WombatCombat I'm unclear what you mean. What do you mean by "by law"? Contradicts what?

A piece of UK legislation that explicitly states that people have a legal right to receive same sex spaces (as opposed to the one posted which stated service provider’s rights to provide sex differentiated services), and/or one that criminalises/legally prevents the entry a single sex area by someone of the wrong sex

@RVN123

Trans women most definitely ARE biological males.

Or are you a biology denier too?

Honestly, you guys just make yourselves look ridiculous when you come out with such drivel.

We would be much more likely to respect the TW that actually recognise biological sex and be able to engage in logical discussion.
When you say that TW are not biological males it makes any further conversation from you redundant.

In what way are TW NOT biological males?

Magic

[quote RainbowBridge67]@titchy

"Errr yeah. By definition a trans woman is male. Otherwise they wouldn't trans."

By definition, trans women transition to female. Look up what transition means. It means changing from one state to another.

"Or maybe you don't like definitions?"

By dictionary definitions, trans women are women.[/quote]
You specified 'biologically' male. Biologically they are male. Every cell in their body is male. With a Y chromosome and everything. Medically you are male. Make sure your tell your HCP that and check your prostate (that's something only males have in case you werent aware).

Thank you for the sunlight though!

Woah. This thread has kicked off.

For some reason, trans people are the only minority group expected to put up with such discrimination.

No mate.
In the UK, Male people, (not all trans people) can be lawfully excluded from women's spaces because they're MALE. Not because they're trans. This is legal under the exemptions laid out in the EA2010.

If a female trans person (transman) is unreasonably excluded from a women only space there may be a case for discrimination.

EVEN STILL the EA2010 Outlines that anyone can be excluded from a women's space on the basis of being of the male sex, OR perceived maleness , so a discrimination case against a transman who looks passably male in a woman's space is going to be very hard and expensive to prove.

A transwoman has no legal case at all because they're male.

Please do link us up to the research that shows that transitioned males have a reduced rate of committing sex crime compared to males in the general population.

And please link us up to the statistics in the UK that support this.

We will wait.

A piece of UK legislation that explicitly states that people have a legal right to receive same sex spaces (as opposed to the one posted which stated service provider’s rights to provide sex differentiated services), and/or one that criminalises/legally prevents the entry a single sex area by someone of the wrong sex

UK-wide? How do you "receive" a space - what sort of legislation covers this? Please can you clarify?

Strangely, female transitioners are still welcome to use female single sex spaces. Many female transitioners have stated though that they have taken testosterone to look more like males so they understand that this can distress other females.

So, 'trans people' are not excluded. Just all males are excluded including transitioned males.

Suggest you go read the law again

It actually states that there are situations where the gender reassignment may still not give you rights to the spaces of the other sex

For example transmen can't inherit titles and rape crisis centres can exclude transwomen

Have you ever read the law or are you repeating what you have been told ?

@anothersmahedmug

Suggest you go read the law again

It actually states that there are situations where the gender reassignment may still not give you rights to the spaces of the other sex

For example transmen can't inherit titles and rape crisis centres can exclude transwomen

Have you ever read the law or are you repeating what you have been told ?

Yes this is where I'm really confused about what OP is asking. There are loads of restrictions to things that are accessed/requested by being one sex or another. Yet OP is saying it needs to state 'receiving spaces' or something?

@Igneococcus

Negative experience with individuals belonging to a group do not justify wholesale discrimination against the entire group.

Taken to its extreme this means all single sex spaces should be abandoned because they discriminate against decent men.

That's not even taking it to an extreme. It's just an argument for full scale abandonment of any positive action. Usually this sort of argument comes from people who are unaware of their own privilege.

Today 18:28RainbowBridge67

By dictionary definitions, trans women are women...

The OED lists transwoman as "a male to female transsexual person". Not woman.

[quote RainbowBridge67]@RVN123

"So its "discrimination" to keep biological males out of female spaces?"

Trans women aren't "biological males", but yes.[/quote]
They are. They are as male as I am.

I think rainbow may have realised they've been reading the old script!

Anyone else getting the vibe that RainbowBridge is the OP of this unforgettable thread...? ("see all" op posts to get the inside info on Brian May )

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3506951-Have-you-ever-thought-maybe-you-are-misunderstandign-the-ideology-ie-being-trans

[quote RainbowBridge67]@Wombat2WombatCombat

Negative experience with individuals belonging to a group do not justify wholesale discrimination against the entire group.

There are straight women who had bad experiences with lesbians, but it would be out of line for them to demand a safe space from lesbians.

Likewise, a white woman having a bad experience with a black person is no argument for racial segregation.

I am simply fundamentally opposed to discrimination on the basis of immutable characteristics. For some reason, trans people are the only minority group expected to put up with such discrimination.[/quote]
98% of sexual crime is perpetrated by males. So, uh, I think we can and we do separate males and females in certain situations.

Can you properly evidence with sources, tbe objective point at which a male who identifies as female ceases to be in the high risk category of male and goes into the low risk category of female?

Trans women aren't "biological males", but yes.

Go on then, give us a definition of biological male which excludes people with XY chromosomes who were born with fully functioning male anatomy and may still have that.

*"Why should women care about the feeling in your head?"

Why should I care about cis women's feelings about my sex or gender?*

You don't have to care but that is not an argument for entering female only spaces is it? It makes you an unpleasant and self-centred person but it's not illegal to not give a shit about others. Don't call us cis. It's misgendering.

*"There are social rules for a reason. Why stop at gender? It is generally considered impolite to rape or murder people."

Rape and murder inflict direct harm on other people. Trans women going about their lives, living as women, and using the same spaces as cis women, does not cause any harm at all.*

Males in females spaces does and is causing harm. Women are being excluded from sports and rape crisis centres and locked up with males in prisons. This is, of course on top of the psychological harm caused when women find men in more everyday female spaces. Please define harm in a way which excludes all of those harms. Transwomen rape and attack at the same rate as other biological males even if we give no credence to the idea that some predatory males will say whatever it takes to access places where their prey will be.

@TheCurrywurstPrion

Caught up now.

A few pages back there was a discussion about death, and OP acknowledged that doctors did tests, where necessary, to identify who was dead.

OP, doctors also do tests to identify what sex people are, and happily for you, they will have written it on your birth certificate - more specifically the one written at birth, as some countries have introduced silly laws that allow people to falsify the sex that was observed and recorded previously.

If, as I suspect, yours has the letter M on it, then you are not welcome in women’s spaces. You can argue, if you wish, that you wouldn’t be breaking the law to do so, and you can also argue that women can’t stop you. You would be correct in both. However regardless of laws and the inability of women to stop you being a despicable human being, the fact remains that if you are male and invade women’s spaces, despite knowing you will distress them, then that is what you are.

I have struggled to find much in depth information on how birth certificate sex is determined, but what I have found indicates that it is based on external genitalia appearance, which in some cases can be ambiguous, and which also conflicts with the previously stated definitions around gamete production. In countries like Germany, this is dealt with by also allowing the term ‘indeterminate’, which identifies a potential lack of a distinct binary

Your idea of "safeguarding" is queerphobic garbage.

Ah yes, another way to break down safeguarding boundaries - call it queerphobic.

That shit just doesn't wash around these parts I'm afraid, hun....

I have struggled to find much in depth information on how birth certificate sex is determined, but what I have found indicates that it is based on external genitalia appearance, which in some cases can be ambiguous, and which also conflicts with the previously stated definitions around gamete production. In countries like Germany, this is dealt with by also allowing the term ‘indeterminate’, which identifies a potential lack of a distinct binary*

No it just shows the fuzziness around the edges of the binary. It adds nothing to this conversation and yes of course it's determined by looking at genitals. What do you think this proves? You do seem to be running in circle with the same unconvincing arguments.

You've not answered my previous question - if you believe these categories are meaningless then why do we need any sex-segregated spaces or data at all?

Most cases it but ambiguous

They investigate if it is

Very rarely the ambiguity isn't resolved till children are much older

So what ?

At the end of the day they will do genetic tests if needs be but usually that's unnecessary

I really don't understand you point? Very occasionally it's hard to tell. By the time the person is adult they know and thier dictors know through physical proof such as internal photos or dna analysis