Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet Webchat about women/mums in politics with Stella Creasy and Caroline Nokes - 1st February

609 replies

Bosky · 31/01/2022 11:56

Anyone got any questions for Stella and Caroline? Smile

Go to:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/4468388-Webchat-about-women-mums-in-politics-with-Stella-Creasy-and-Caroline-Nokes-1st-February

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
ArabellaScott · 02/02/2022 11:45

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1488777456261730308

'The IDEA that it's people who recognise the reality, immutability and salience of binary sex for human being's lives who have been "radicalised" is Trumpian levels of absurd'

'That it is hard to find such denialists among women who have recently ejected an entire new living person from their bodies is anything but surprising! '

RoyalCorgi · 02/02/2022 11:52

The visitor invariably wishes to tell women what is useful to them to put into the public sphere, sees it as a 'sharing soundbites' and downloading experience rather than a receptive one, and often is making use of the optics of here am I talking to the mummies, aren't I accessible and diverse?

Laurie Penny made this same mistake when she visited MN - not for a webchat, she just turned up and started a thread one day. She would have been very young at the time. But she had decided that the only reason the silly mummies were getting all het up about the trans issue was because we felt disaffected at the lack of mum-friendly policies from government and we were venting our disappointment by misguidedly targeting trans people.

It was a really remarkable misreading of the situation - but it does demonstrate how people who should know better assume that mothers have no brains.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2022 12:02

I find it a bizarre stance to want to dictate the conversation on webchats when you're an elected MP. I understand why a lot of people come onto mn to flog a book or something want to talk about that but surely your role as an MP is to listen to your constituents and ensure their voices are heard. Isn't that literally what they're paid to do?

This.

littlbrowndog · 02/02/2022 12:11

I thought it was patronising to come to a webchat and not be prepared with childcare. I can’t do my job with the toddlers by me. It’s not possible

It was like we weren’t taken seriously

How can you give your full attention to what your doing

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2022 12:12

Yes, it fell pretty flat I think. Especially as she was so invested in denying biological sex needed to be respected.

OvaHere · 02/02/2022 12:12

@ArabellaScott

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1488777456261730308

'The IDEA that it's people who recognise the reality, immutability and salience of binary sex for human being's lives who have been "radicalised" is Trumpian levels of absurd'

'That it is hard to find such denialists among women who have recently ejected an entire new living person from their bodies is anything but surprising! '

This reply to Helen is a doozy. Imagine being part of this online exchange Shock

twitter.com/Gimpuslegend/status/1488779178992447488

I still find myself drawn in sometimes, even though I know I shouldn't.

I got into a truly mad exchange yesterday, with someone who sought to refute the immutability of sex by reference to... CADAVERIC HEAD TRANSPLANTATION.

RedToothBrush · 02/02/2022 12:21

Those who are tackling the issue are addressing it at the wrong level.

ABSO-FUCKING-LUETLY.

Creasy is all 'in parliament', 'if you stand for westminister' and comments about local level a complete after thought.

The problem is that you either have women who set out for careers into politics or women who are taught at local level, that politics isn't for women.

Yesterday I spent a lot of time looking at the educational levels of women in politics. What is noticable is the trend that women have increasingly done degrees, and even more notably have studied politics in increasing numbers in recent years.

This seems to be particularly true of Labour, with the Conservatives being slightly more likely to field female candidates who have worked up through the local politics route than Labour.

As a rule, and part of the overall disillussionment of the public with politicians, has been the rise of career politicians with 'rising stars' parachuted into prime safe seats. So we've ended up with a frustration in shit politicians more concerned about their Westminister career basically neglecting issues in their constituencies for decades. That was one of the reasons that left the Red Wall prime for the taking. I'd argue that MPs who have lived and worked for the area for years prior to standing for election, are much better at understanding the problems of their area from the ground up.

If you want to have women interested and engaged in politics, you encourage every single grass roots political organisation, you do as much as you can to FORCE backward constituency parties who are largely run by pensioner to change. The Labour Party could insist on party meetings and inner workings being better for women at all levels. Same goes for the LDs and the Conservatives. The fact they don't just highlights that really the establishment are that interested in women being in politics. The likes of Stella's campagn is just a PR exercise which she is 'allowed' to do. We are not seeing the males in any party driving for these proposals because they damn well know that could have an impact on their own careers and women might start being uppity and having basic expectations rather than a 'be grateful' attitude.

I can not stress enough how this comes across on MN when it comes to women's health, and how often you get posters being told they should 'be grateful' rather than encouraging a massive ground swell of anger about second rate health care, poor maternity provision, lack of consideration of the importance of dignity and safeguarding, ignoring of institutionalised sexism in health and poor attitudes to consent. The mentality is far too often a 'well thats just the way it is and its never going to change'. It will never change, precisely be women don't force the issue and demand better.

I have stayed on MN for many years merely to keep saying it DOES matter because I know damn well that politicians at all levels DON'T CARE and I don't know how else you get that message out that YES IT MATTERS. The status quo is comfortable and easy. And thats were the rot has set in. There is no grass roots political movement properly connected to Westminster anymore. Except the Nimby Movement which is the LDs secret weapon at local elections.

I do think that MN in that sense - not just because of the GC movement on it - is seen as something of a threat because its a rare place where debate still thrives in more than 256 characters. Its seen as radical, precisely because its simply not passive. Remember this is a period of time where Westminster has spent a significant amount of time legislating against protest rights, Labour has been terrified by the factionalism in its own ranks 'scaring off the middle classes' and the LDs have actively said that in order to be liberal and democractic it is essential to throw women with the wrong views out of the party.

Nothing says we support women voicing different opinions than the treatment of Natalie Bird (I know someone who saw it all unfold in real time at the time and was appalled.) I've had a LD lord actively privately admit to me that the party has a problem with bullying. You only have to look at the structure of the LDs and how few individuals hold executive positions across multiple LD groups to realise there is an issue with cliques.

If you have a 'face thats doesn't fit' then you give up before you even begin.

DH was a friend of a local councillor. One of the (many) reasons we fell out was because I found out he had told DH that I was 'overly opinionated' and that DH should get me to wind my neck in. He'd previously whinged that I'd been unwilling to stand for local elections. The cognitive dissonce is something thats shared by so many politicians at all levels.

Creasy and Nokes say that women shouldn't be gender critical and haven't had the guts to say 'I don't agree with GC women but it is essential to women in politics and democracy in general to ensure they are welcomed into politics, not demonised and actively participate in politics in a productive way within the system'.

Every time women are push out of the system by whatever bullying and marginalisation techniques (both of accident and by design), it only reinforces the message that 'politics isn't for me'.

You can't go on a webchat for encouraging women into politics and then say 'be nice, that subject is off limits and we've had enough of that now' precisely because that gives the opposite effect to the one you are trying to achieve, because it looks like a top down control which fails to listen and engage and allow women to say what they want on their own terms.

Its all about recruiting 'the right views' rather than the right people. We talk about diversity, but we only use the permitted parametres and measures of that as defined from above rather than actually being representative of the people.

The overall prism through which politics is viewed on in the UK is Them and Us in terms of politicians. If you are outside politics then its you v politicans. If you sign up to a party you are required to sign up to the leadership's already decided agenda with no descent, no room for personal nuiance. Instead of being self critical and trying to improve from within, you should say 'well look how bad the other party is'.

It is all just one giantic race to the bottom where women are reduced to holding the baby going 'Look I've got a wiggly baby like you' in an effort to try and get more women into politics rather than standing back, and saying 'what issues are disproportionately affecting women in society across the board. what are female social injustices. tell me about this, suggest ideas and examine the problems in a cross party fashion. what barriers have you faced.' etc etc.

You know talking to women like grown ups with an intellect and maybe have something worthwhile to add to the conversation.

'Be Kind' is so utterly stiffling, especially when that's the exact problem many of have faced if we are remotely interested in political issues and trying to get heard. 'Don't make a fuss'. 'Be grateful'.

So many of these issues about women going into politics are internal party matters. If you can't win the conversation within your own parties - in places where you hold a majority on a local council - then fuck me, whats the fucking point. Have a nice little campaign and stick 'Mum' in the title and sit flat on your arse going 'wiggly baby'.

Otherwise actually get involved in the grass roots properly. Rather than constantly telling women who are how they are doing it all wrong.

FOJN · 02/02/2022 12:23

Excellent tweet from Birdy Rose on the Helen Joyce thread linked above.

twitter.com/TheFamousArtBR/status/1488798405136728068?s=20&t=ngttIdoGurHpfhQybK3ElQ

littlbrowndog · 02/02/2022 12:25

Great post red

The 2 women politicians should read this post by you

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2022 12:26

Creasy and Nokes say that women shouldn't be gender critical and haven't had the guts to say 'I don't agree with GC women but it is essential to women in politics and democracy in general to ensure they are welcomed into politics, not demonised and actively participate in politics in a productive way within the system'.

Every time women are push out of the system by whatever bullying and marginalisation techniques (both of accident and by design), it only reinforces the message that 'politics isn't for me'.

You can't go on a webchat for encouraging women into politics and then say 'be nice, that subject is off limits and we've had enough of that now' precisely because that gives the opposite effect to the one you are trying to achieve, because it looks like a top down control which fails to listen and engage and allow women to say what they want on their own terms.

This this this. I can't understand the huge cognitive dissonance these women manage to maintain around listening to women's voices.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2022 12:30

And people (many of whom are just jumping on the bandwagon, many of them sexist men) whinging and concern trolling that the web chat was "taken over" by requests to define "woman" is beside the point. They had to choose from the questions which were posted. Most of them were from GC feminist posters. No one else was bothered about the webchat enough to post questions, or their questions would have been answered to avoid the difficult ones. No one even asked for a favourite biscuit Grin

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 02/02/2022 12:34

@RedToothBrush

I really hope you are in politics, Red.

RedToothBrush · 02/02/2022 12:42

@littlbrowndog

Great post red

The 2 women politicians should read this post by you

I've been banging on about barriers to politics for women on here for YEARS.

I think my biggest problem is these two clowns don't seem to have come from the starting point of going and ASKING women, what their experiences of politics have been and WHY they wouldn't go into politics or if they have tried to engage why they gave up and what would make you change your mind.

Instead Stella came on to TELL us what to do. When many of us have tried to engage but have been made to feel that we are not welcome or wanted. Thats a crucial point.

You get better debates by asking the right questions to begin with. That would have made the framework for yesterday's debate a whole lot better in the first place.

Instead it was more 'ask the experts their opinions'. The whole thing was the wrong way around and think thats where webchats are utterly flawed.

@MNHQ themselves should really think about this better. Any session with politicians should really try to have a starting point which starts encouraging politicians to ask questions of the public and for THEM to be learning not posters asking questions of the politicians so they can be educated. The whole problem is that politicians shouldn't be telling, they should be listening and thats why web chats with politicians always go wrong.

The power dynamics of this are glaring. Once you see it, you can't unsee it - you don't belong, you aren't welcome, you have the wrong beliefs.

RedToothBrush · 02/02/2022 12:46

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

*@RedToothBrush* I really hope you are in politics, Red.
I'm not. I've been accused of it, many times on MN. Apparently I'm paid... (oh if only).

But no. I really am just sat at home on my sofa lamenting the fact that I'm not an obnoxious tone deaf dickhead so not really suited to politics.

PronounssheRa · 02/02/2022 12:53

Instead Stella came on to TELL us what to do. When many of us have tried to engage but have been made to feel that we are not welcome or wanted

This gets to the core of how I feel. Stella wasn't interested in what other women see as barriers she wanted to lecture on what she sees as barriers. The juggling a wiggly baby line bugged me and I have been trying to work out why. To me it felt like Stella used this as a prop to distract women from their concerns to divert themselves to Stella's concerns instead. Same as the repeated reference to this mum votes, honestly I think Stella was only here to push her own campaign she had zero interest in anything else.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 02/02/2022 12:53

Well, I've long-since added you to my Dream Team, @RedToothBrush.

I do think there is a need to get back to politicians who had a career or some life experience before taking a seat in WM.

The narrow group who study Economics, Philosophy and Politics at Cambridge/Oxford and land up as career politicians worry me.

Where are the ex trade unionists, medics, businessmen, service industry, retail, carers, working class people, immigrants, women, disabled people, multi faiths and none?

RedToothBrush · 02/02/2022 12:58

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Well, I've long-since added you to my Dream Team, *@RedToothBrush*.

I do think there is a need to get back to politicians who had a career or some life experience before taking a seat in WM.

The narrow group who study Economics, Philosophy and Politics at Cambridge/Oxford and land up as career politicians worry me.

Where are the ex trade unionists, medics, businessmen, service industry, retail, carers, working class people, immigrants, women, disabled people, multi faiths and none?

Ironically, in the Lords. Which loads of people want to get rid of.

The Lords have actually done some worthwhile stuff in insisting on amendments in recent years because there are many people who were selected to become Lords based on their life and work experiences.

There is a lot of dead wood in there, but I do wish we'd perhaps value what it DOES have to offer a little more.

ArabellaScott · 02/02/2022 13:01

*@MNHQ themselves should really think about this better. Any session with politicians should really try to have a starting point which starts encouraging politicians to ask questions of the public and for THEM to be learning not posters asking questions of the politicians so they can be educated. The whole problem is that politicians shouldn't be telling, they should be listening and thats why web chats with politicians always go wrong. *

Yes! Thank you. We are not sitting here waiting to be bloody educated by politicians.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding among some in politics - they don't govern the electorate, they serve and represent the electorate. That's how it's supposed to work.

MaMaLa321 · 02/02/2022 13:12

I thought Posey Parker was brilliant on this.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 02/02/2022 13:15

Must admit, @RedToothBrush, I thought the Lords was a terrible establishment because it was Proper Establishment.

Then I read about Lord Hunt and wrote to him about a woman's issue. That led to me learning more and now I'm a massive fan of the HoL - if it wasn't for a very small core of sensible people women's rights would have been fucked. I can't believe how close we came to losing "mother" as a word.

I emailed Baroness Nicholson one Saturday night at 2am, I was thanking her - and I got a reply straight away. "It's far too late to be working, especially at the weekend!" One word reply, "Afghanistan". She's 80 years old, and she's up in the night working to help women and children in Afghanistan. Makes me well up.

There are people in the HoL who are actual heroes.

Thank goodness for them.

IKeptYouLikeAnOath · 02/02/2022 13:18

@MaMaLa321

I thought Posey Parker was brilliant on this.
Absolutely amazing! Although it's clear to see how she got banned from MN given that she speaks so honestly and passionately Grin
RedToothBrush · 02/02/2022 13:20

I think there is a problem between politicians who do it for a career and those who do it out of a greater sense of duty.

If you are in your 80s,the chances are you are no longer doing things for a career if you are still working in politics...

JoodyBlue · 02/02/2022 13:24

Political researchers put together focus groups to see how groups respond to issues. A thread like this should be gold dust for them, in understanding what a huge number of women are saying. I hope grown up politicians will listen. Eventually they will have to.

IKeptYouLikeAnOath · 02/02/2022 13:27

Ah yes, but they just dismiss us as a transphobic cult, and not reflective of women in general, so they don't have to engage with a tricky subject that might personally inconvenience them 🤷🏻‍♀️

RedToothBrush · 02/02/2022 13:29

@JoodyBlue

Political researchers put together focus groups to see how groups respond to issues. A thread like this should be gold dust for them, in understanding what a huge number of women are saying. I hope grown up politicians will listen. Eventually they will have to.
Thats why I post on MN. In the hope that someone is awake and paying attention when their bosses are clearly asleep at the wheel.

Or that jounalists pick up on things and then ask the right questions from that.

I don't trust politicians to pay attention or listen anymore and thats the problem.

Swipe left for the next trending thread