"Top surgery" for 12 year olds.

[FOJN]

New video from mrmenno on "top surgery" for minors. We already knew some of the gruesome details about what happens state side but the details about Scottish referrals for 16 and 17 year olds were new to me. I think it's important to emphasise the referrals part, I don't know if surgery was actually performed before the patients turned 18.

Note what happens to the rate of referrals for patients in their mid twenties, it's a trend I've noticed before. At what age is the brain fully developed?

I've also wondered about how young some of the patients are and what stage of puberty they are at when these decisions are made. Would a 12 year old, presumably sufficiently dysphoric enough to justify surgery not have been diagnosed before puberty and put on blockers or is this a rushed decision after puberty has started. Breast growth cannot be finished at 12 so what is being done to ensure the surgical results are permanent?

I'm trying to work out what the clinical logic is of performing such radical surgery on very young girls when you cannot reliably predict your ability to completely halt natural puberty. Are these children being given cross sex hormones at 12 and 13?

Dr Sidhbh Gallagher seems to be spearheading this in the USA. She's very social media savvy, and uses terminology like "teet yeet" and "teetus deletus".

She is grim.

Laid out and spelt out the way he has, I can't see how anyone can argue that this is ok or that these children should not access therapy that spends a great deal of time challenging this decision.

That would be classed as conversion therapy. And so could be against the law.

When grown women regret and detransition, how is this acceptable?

For reference, here's Mr Menno's source material from the study quoted:

"Eligible youth were 13 to 25 years old, had been assigned female at birth, and had an identified gender as something other than female."

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29507933/

Chest Reconstruction and Chest Dysphoria in Transmasculine Minors and Young Adults: Comparisons of Nonsurgical and Postsurgical Cohorts
Johanna Olson-Kennedy et al. JAMA Pediatr. 2018.

Interesting to see that the rates are noticeably dropping off in the run up to age 25 or so, "coincidentally" as brain maturity occurs...

Interesting to see that the rates are noticeably dropping off in the run up to age 25 or so, "coincidentally" as brain maturity occurs...

Exactly. It's a pattern I've observed whenever I've seen stats on this surgery.

Horrific, the majority will look back on this with the same horror we feel. I just cant understand why they aren’t horrified now

In a few years we will be seeing young women in changing rooms and gyms with tell tale scars. Fashion houses designing for flat chested women. Making ££ on special foundation shapewear.

ANewCreation

Thanks for the link. I'm just reading the full paper, link below. I'd be grateful if anyone who has the time and experience of submitting research proposals, designing/ conducting research studies or critiquing/peer reviewing research papers could read it and give their veiws.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5875384/#!po=56.2500

There are a number of things I think the abstract is misleading on. The average age of the post surgical cohort is reported as 19 but this is their age at the time the survey was completed, their average age at the time of surgery was 17.5. None of the non surgical patients who were approached to participate refused. The post surgical cohort had 2 refusals, centre staff attempted to contact all post surgical youth who had not visited during the enrollment procedure, 26% could not be reached! Researchers confidently assert there was only one case of post surgical regret.

The paper cites WPATH guidance on age when considering surgical intervention but replaces "age of majority" (used by WPATH) with "age of consent"; different numbers in many countries and different legal concepts everywhere.

And then there is this:

The process by which individual mental health professionals assess readiness for surgery varies across practices. The common goal of health care professionals is to assure that patients have the capacity to provide consent and are fully informed about the mechanics, recovery, and irreversible nature of the surgery.

Absolutely nothing about assessment of the necessity for surgery or expectations post operatively.

I haven't finished yet but its a pretty shocking read.

We'll look back on this with horror, these poor girls need therapy. Dr Sidhbh Gallagher's FaceBook is grim, I would like her to have to face every one of these girls in 25 years time. Clearly they travel from UK/Ireland too.

Nice to see someone call it what it is.

If you cant talk about it you shouldn't be doing it..isn't that what we used to tell.kids.

I have an 11 yr old and a 15 yr old. The idea they could access such drastic non emergency and non.life saving surgery is one.that terrifies me.

No wonder accessing schools with " training " is so popular the rates drop off in.adult hood.🤔

The common goal of health care professionals is to assure that patients have the capacity to provide consent and are fully informed about the mechanics, recovery, and irreversible nature of the surgery.

One well known person who has given birth to two babies but prefers to be known as a man clearly didn't understand the mechanics and irreversible nature of the surgery.

So humans can be at the same time too young for adult prison at 27 years of age (recent conviction in the US) and at the same time old enough to consent to a double mastectomy before they are 18 but at the same time too young to drink at age 20...

nebrialty Yes it's a bit like the fact that kids know who they re from a really young age..in fact babies and toddlers have ways to communicate this. But they simultaneously need extra time at puberty to work.out who they are.

Nobody under 18 is having top surgery in the UK.

Well that’s not true is it?

Article

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ff0b02b0-1a5d-11ec-8d6d-67649e90fafa?shareToken=a49f40d84e724b22f707a60546c3ae06

@FannyCann so it's society's fault that this individual didn't realise that chopping off your breasts and nipples would render them non-functional? I am struggling to find words.

Extract from the Times article linked to above:

More than 50 transgender boys under the age of 18 have been approved for double mastectomies in Scotland, it has been revealed.

The figures, released under freedom of information, have been seized upon by a campaign group to argue against Scottish government plans to lower the age at which people can legally change their gender to 16.

Fifty-one teenagers aged 16 and 17 who were born as females were sent to hospitals in England to undergo further assessment for “specialist chest reconstruction” over the past six years, The Telegraph reported. In theory, those as young as 17 can undergo the procedure, and children aged 16 have been “referred for assessment for surgery”.

I saw this article on BBC Newsbeat yesterday:

Musician Freddie Lewis on dealing with periods as a trans man

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-59829907

Freddie is 21 now and it sounds as if they were 18 or 19 when they started testosterone and had top surgery. An interesting read.

If I knew that my donated breast milk had gone to a woman who identified out of womanhood and had her breasts & nipples removed, I'm not sure how I would feel.

Thats not the Freddie who had the baby? I didn’t look.

One well known person who has given birth to two babies but prefers to be known as a man clearly didn't understand the mechanics and irreversible nature of the surgery.

Maybe Freddy had a doctor like Johanna Olson-Kennedy, who was mentioned in Mr Menno's video. In this clip she says it's no big deal if teenage girls have mastectomies, because if they want breasts later they "can go and get them".

"Back then I couldn't conceive parent hood."

And we expect teens to make life long decisions about their fertility and parenting choices??

When I was 25 I didn't want kids, much less breastfeed.

Then a decade later I had my first and I thought I'd give it a go, possibly for max a year.

I've now been breastfeeding 2 different children for over 7 years.

I certainly didn’t want kids until my early 30s

[quote Motorina]@FannyCann so it's society's fault that this individual didn't realise that chopping off your breasts and nipples would render them non-functional? I am struggling to find words.[/quote]
Yeah, it seems bizarre, I can't figure out what else it would mean though.