"Top surgery" for 12 year olds.

[FOJN]

New video from mrmenno on "top surgery" for minors. We already knew some of the gruesome details about what happens state side but the details about Scottish referrals for 16 and 17 year olds were new to me. I think it's important to emphasise the referrals part, I don't know if surgery was actually performed before the patients turned 18.

Note what happens to the rate of referrals for patients in their mid twenties, it's a trend I've noticed before. At what age is the brain fully developed?

I've also wondered about how young some of the patients are and what stage of puberty they are at when these decisions are made. Would a 12 year old, presumably sufficiently dysphoric enough to justify surgery not have been diagnosed before puberty and put on blockers or is this a rushed decision after puberty has started. Breast growth cannot be finished at 12 so what is being done to ensure the surgical results are permanent?

I'm trying to work out what the clinical logic is of performing such radical surgery on very young girls when you cannot reliably predict your ability to completely halt natural puberty. Are these children being given cross sex hormones at 12 and 13?

I had to stop reading when I got to the bit where she was making a sad face about only having 4 girls booked in for double mastectomies the following week.

How can we live in a world where this is happening?

I wonder what age Dr Gallagher's UK clients are.
We have different rules around consent and protection of teenagers here don't we?
Bypassing those rules to seek treatment abroad should be up there with going abroad for FGM or an arranged marriage.

They do seem young - but it must be the parents green lighting this (we have seen the undercover videos of doctors advising prospects to claim suicidal thoughts to access medical treatment). A scared parent and a manipulative child - well you can imagine.

Bypassing those rules to seek treatment abroad should be up there with going abroad for FGM or an arranged marriage

I really worry about the parents own views of their own bodies when we see and hear about cases where kids are being operated on.

That dr, the one who said " if they want breats they can get some later ". I think that shows quite clearly about what people think bodies are.

That breasts are just two lumps of useless flesh that can just be recreated with with some silicone.

Nipples are not important

A vagina is merely a hole to accommodate a penis etc

No one, who has grasp of what ll these body parts can do and what they actually are coupd surely advocate to just removing or attempting to create them.

Is that what happens when you enter the world of cosmetic surgery? Bodies become a list of problems that need fixing. A collection of parts that can just be created in an operating theatre.

It’s not just the world of cosmetic surgery, it’s also the world of porn. The focus on “Mounds of flesh…holes” detaches these body parts from the woman they belong to.

@FannyCann

I wonder what age Dr Gallagher's UK clients are. We have different rules around consent and protection of teenagers here don't we? Bypassing those rules to seek treatment abroad should be up there with going abroad for FGM or an arranged marriage.

It's amazing how this ideology gets a free pass from so many fundamental ethical standards that relate to children's welfare and safety?

How on earth have they managed to silence all those responsible?

Business isn’t it? Very smart business.

Business isn’t it? Very smart business

Still, people are very wary of parting with their cash 99.9 percent of the time. Refusing to fall for selling up sales pitches, questioning every penny over an agreed price. Standing at the check out refusing to pay 30 p extra than they think they should pay because the offer price is still on one sad lonely forgotten poster on the wall even though the offer ended a day ago.

Yet this stuff is another financial blind spot with parebts happy to pay to be referred around the inner circle ot those who profit from gender treatments. No questions asked about who's being paid and why there's no external independent involvement.

More time and energy fighting over being ripped off on a bag of carrots than surgeons making thousands if dollars with surgeries that that garunteed outcome is they go wrong and you have to go back for repairs

I've finally got round to reading the deep dive into Dr Gallagher.
What a shocker it is.

I really despair of the future, for women, and children and families.
So many young women will have been harmed by this, many of them rendered infertile by testosterone or given a hysterectomy. Rampant poor mental health. I think it will be ten to twenty years before their peers start having children and the sterilised ones wake up to their situation.
There will be a demand for children by surrogacy and other women expected to step up and provide breeding services. We already have a breeder class of woman. An increasing number of "elite" women, particularly in Hollywood and high status jobs will outsource pregnancy and childbirth through social surrogacy.

Women who actually want to have their own children and breastfeed them will be looked down on - remember how Linda in The Brave New World was disgusted at going through childbirth.

This is our future. Breeders providing babies for the desexed youth of today and an elite who prefer not to put their bodies through the horror of childbirth. Breastfeeding will be a thing of the past.

Children will never get the chance to have that close secure relationship with their mothers, all the beautiful eye contact and closeness that encompasses mother and baby when feeding, lost to future generations.

That is the future I see. So many have been affected by the gender ideaology, so many ruined bodies, the harm can't be undone.

It's heartbreaking isn't it FannyCann. And we are powerless to intervene.

The BBC ran a series on radio 4 years ago called the Ethics Committee, looking at cases where an ethics committee for a health board ( which I didn’t know existed) would sit to discuss patients who had requested treatment that was different from the norm. I remember a case of a woman whose knee was completely wrecked due to injury who decided she wanted it amputated so she could ski again , but this time with a prosthetic. It took the committee years to allow the surgery to go ahead and if I recall the woman did ski again but she was unprepared for all the stump issues etc. She believed chopping the leg off was a cure all.
Do any of these trans surgeries go through ethics committees or does it all get conveniently bypassed?

I suspect these treatments are now considered the norm within certain parameters, so no. I hope I'm right in saying that the NHS wouldn't do a double mastectomy or a hysterectomy on an under-16 for gender-related reasons. I'm unclear how the private health system in the UK is regulated to prevent them doing things that wouldn't be allowed for ethical reasons on the NHS.

Children will never get the chance to have that close secure relationship with their mothers, all the beautiful eye contact and closeness that encompasses mother and baby when feeding, lost to future generations.

Attachment disorder rife and all the complications it brings

@Whattochoosenow

The BBC ran a series on radio 4 years ago called the Ethics Committee, looking at cases where an ethics committee for a health board ( which I didn’t know existed) would sit to discuss patients who had requested treatment that was different from the norm. I remember a case of a woman whose knee was completely wrecked due to injury who decided she wanted it amputated so she could ski again , but this time with a prosthetic. It took the committee years to allow the surgery to go ahead and if I recall the woman did ski again but she was unprepared for all the stump issues etc. She believed chopping the leg off was a cure all. Do any of these trans surgeries go through ethics committees or does it all get conveniently bypassed?

Seeing the clips of the Irish woman’s carefree attempts to attract young teens to have their breast cut off and their wombs removed - all so fun and exciting and easy!!! - I don’t believe for one moment that these procedures are run past an ethics committee. The images she’s created online make me think of a budget supermarket with its BOGOF-type offers. So cheap! So easy! Just buy one today!

Nothing is precious, it’s all cheap and disposable, as the image of the grinning, blue-gowned “doctor” carrying buckets labelled “breast material” show. It’s beyond nightmarish.

No one, who has grasp of what ll these body parts can do and what they actually are coupd surely advocate to just removing or attempting to create them

Was just talking to a mother whose 11 yr daughter wants "top surgery." This child is maybe stage 2 Tanner as she's just started puberty. She's no idea what it means to experience sexual pleasure and maybe won't for another 10 years, so how can she have any idea what her breasts will mean to her almost half her life from now? Plenty of women don't experience all our erogenous zones until we're a bit more sexually experienced and the average age experiencing your first sexual pleasure can be as wide a range of 15-25.

Beyond sexual pleasure with our breasts, she has no idea if she will want to breastfeed and as @FannyCann so beautifully captured, the bond formed at the breast is something no tween and few adults can truly grasp. Mothers who formula feed often do so as they cuddle their babies to their breasts. Adoptive mothers can attend classes to encourage feeding and holding at the breast. I've seen grandmothers instinctually hold infants to their breasts and rock them. To deny a connection between female breasts and baby bonding is to deny human and mammalian biology and nurturing.

Not every woman will want children nor be sexually pleasured by their breasts, but for all women breasts are a natural part of her body. To deny this seems short sighted at best, cruel at worst.

And for the girl who has no idea yet what it is to walk in a mature woman's body, how can anyone think she can make a competent irreversible decision on her unknown future?

Amen to all of that.

So much of this comes back to young girls experiencing, or worrying about experiencing, sexual harassment from boys and men as their bodies start to change at puberty.

Why isn't there a big societal push to get boys and men to start treating girls and women with respect? Why aren't boys and men calling out this behaviour when they see it?

Answers on a postcard.

And of course there is so much pressure to sexualise at a younger age, because porn etc. Along with the pressure from different sides to decide our identity as early as possible…

For this reason I have big issues with the asexual label. It worries me that young teens are declaring themselves asexual - of course many (especially girls) want to avoid the horrible sexualisation they feel pressured into. But for a child to be asexual means that other children can therefore be assumed to be happy with and able to consent to sex, no?

And if a trans identifying teen is also identifying as asexual then they’ll feel that’s permanently part of their identity, so of course they’ll never care about losing sensation etc as you’ve described delphinium :(

Why is NOT being remotely interested in sex seen as something that needs a label? It’s NORMAL for teens to not be interested and/or to not feel ready.

Why is NOT being remotely interested in sex seen as something that needs a label? It’s NORMAL for teens to not be interested and/or to not feel ready

Because asexuality was one of the defences in the keira Bell case.

It doesn't matter if the child ends up without sexual desire or function because some might turn out to be asexual anyway

Nothing is precious, it’s all cheap and disposable, as the image of the grinning, blue-gowned “doctor” carrying buckets labelled “breast material” show. It’s beyond nightmarish.

This saddens me more than I can articulate with words. It's a primal feeling. Truly dystopian.

Because asexuality was one of the defences in the keira Bell case.
Wow really I didn’t know that :(