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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Top surgery" for 12 year olds.

120 replies

FOJN · 31/01/2022 11:16

New video from mrmenno on "top surgery" for minors. We already knew some of the gruesome details about what happens state side but the details about Scottish referrals for 16 and 17 year olds were new to me. I think it's important to emphasise the referrals part, I don't know if surgery was actually performed before the patients turned 18.

Note what happens to the rate of referrals for patients in their mid twenties, it's a trend I've noticed before. At what age is the brain fully developed?

I've also wondered about how young some of the patients are and what stage of puberty they are at when these decisions are made. Would a 12 year old, presumably sufficiently dysphoric enough to justify surgery not have been diagnosed before puberty and put on blockers or is this a rushed decision after puberty has started. Breast growth cannot be finished at 12 so what is being done to ensure the surgical results are permanent?

I'm trying to work out what the clinical logic is of performing such radical surgery on very young girls when you cannot reliably predict your ability to completely halt natural puberty. Are these children being given cross sex hormones at 12 and 13?

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Worrysaboutalot · 02/02/2022 08:29

@KittenKong

I certainly didn’t want kids until my early 30s
Ditto. I was very anti babies until my 30's and then flipped to having four babies. Breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and all the rest.

When I sure I absolutely 100% sure I never wanted children and that I was never having any children from being 14yo, yet I changed my mind at 30yo!

I don't think our stories are unique, many women don't want a family until they are in their 30's. Good job we were never sterilised in our teenage years.

KittenKong · 02/02/2022 08:33

On the reverse - my mum had loads of kids. She was advised NOT to get pregnant as it could have been fatal. Her doctors told her this. Buy you didn’t ‘just get’ sterilised back then.

She woke up from my birth to be told by the surgeon that he had done it. It hasn’t been discussed and I don’t think they told dad until after.

Women not in charge of their own bodies - but children and young adults know enough to make life changing decisions???

FOJN · 02/02/2022 08:41

Women not in charge of their own bodies - but children and young adults know enough to make life changing decisions???

Even now a woman who was convinced she didn't want children would struggle to get sterilised in her 20's but teenagers are being permitted to make decisions which will leave them sterilised, sometimes before they have even reached an age where fertility could be preserved.

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SamphiretheStickerist · 02/02/2022 08:50

Interesting to see that the rates are noticeably dropping off in the run up to age 25 or so, "coincidentally" as brain maturity occurs...

The very reason most TRAs insist that transition begins as early as possible. So those pesky facts don't keep on coming.

Which is also why I still don't understand why we are still seeing ANY organisation, government etc, paying any attention whatsoever to any of this. It's just a hard "No!", isn't it?

Lockdownbear · 02/02/2022 08:55

Even now a woman who was convinced she didn't want children would struggle to get sterilised in her 20's but teenagers are being permitted to make decisions which will leave them sterilised, sometimes before they have even reached an age where fertility could be preserved.

That's so true, I knew a young mum, 20 with 3 kids, failed miserably with the pill, who met the "against policy to sterilise before the age of 23" her youngest will be 16 now, but it seemed unfair she couldn't make a decision that everyone could see was best for her and her existing 3 kids. She and her equally young partner were struggling and little hope of being able to get on in life and caught in the benefits trap.

Delphinium20 · 02/02/2022 15:44

@WarriorN

So basically, trans is normalised for young women.

Bf isn't.

Easy to see that the overwhelming narrative is anti female.

Also, Emma Picket a breastfeeding consultant wrote a great book about breasts. Except it included a part about how some women choose to remove them. So that ok. Hmm

nothing about cancer and mastectomies as she didn't want to scare kids. She wanted them to embrace the normality of breasts. HmmHmmby knowing they can be removed.

I'm so disgusted that this theme of 'choice breast removal' is making it waves in education. That same theme was in my daughter's sex education curriculum for 9/10/11 year olds that stated some women who don't like their breasts can get surgery.
Kanaloa · 02/02/2022 19:17

@nolongersurprised

While consent should definitely cover a number of eventualities, I’m not sure that should include explaining to someone that if they choose to remove their lactating organs then those organs will no longer be there.
In my experience doctors and consultants will literally say stuff like that though. Stuff like ‘you realise that this will possibly result in a hysterectomy which would mean you can’t have more children.’ I’ve had surgeons tell me things like ‘we will make an incision if this size. That will leave you with a scar.’

Obviously I’m already aware of that but they say it anyway. I struggle to believe that this person wasn’t made aware at any point of the process that removing the breasts would mean they would not have functioning breasts. Although possibly as you say this was presumed that they wouldn’t want this mentioned given that they’re living as a man which generally doesn’t involve pregnancy/childbirth/breast feeding.

Although living as a woman/man now seems to be mainly clothing based.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 02/02/2022 19:33

@NotBadConsidering

Freddy is an idiot. Freddy thinks that “old school gender clinicians” and “cis normative society” denied Freddy the knowledge that removing breast and nipple tissue would result in being unable to use that tissue for its primary purpose. Freddy is an idiot to think we will believe Freddy wasn’t told or consented for this. Any woman who has breast reduction surgery is consented around the potential impact on future breastfeeding. So I find it hard to believe a surgeon didn’t discuss it.

But say it’s true, Freddy is an idiot if Freddy wasn’t told directly but didn’t understand this, given it’s something nearly every human on the planet understands. No breasts, no breastfeeding.

Freddy was 28 in 2014, but didn’t understand the implications? And the clinicians in 2014 were “old school”? Come off if Freddy.

And Freddy is also an idiot for posting something like that and not realising it demonstrates Freddy’s horrific hypocrisy.

Firstly, Freddy is a hypocrite by demonstrating how irreversible procedures can lead to future regret while AT THE SAME TIME campaigning for CHILDREN to undergo irreversible treatment that won’t even allow a female to get to the breastfeeding stage (because Freddy thinks children should get puberty blockers and testosterone which will mean these females are infertile.)

And second, Freddy is a hypocrite for blaming the lack of information about the implications of such irreversible procedures on “old school gender clinicians” and “cis normative society” while failing to acknowledge it is TRAs all around Freddy who are completely denying the implications of affirmative treatments, pretending with a hand wave it’s something that be fixed later, while it is everyone gender critical who is screaming this from rooftops, desperately trying to prevent young females from making the same irreversible decisions Freddy is now regretting and blaming on others.

28 year old Freddy wasn’t adequately consented for surgery, apparently. 28 year old Freddy wanted to be told specifically that even though 28 year old Freddy couldn’t even “conceive [the idea] of parenthood”, Freddy wanted to be specifically told that the surgery to remove the organs used for breastfeeding would impact possible future breastfeeding. Is Freddy arguing that had that mystical information that was withheld by “old school gender clinicians” been more freely given then 28 year old “couldn’t conceive of parenthood” Freddy would have given a different answer? Hmm

Let’s say, for argument’s sake, the answer is that Freddy would have declined the mastectomy technique as offered. The solution argued is that more information is the key to better choices.

But let’s look at children. A key part of the Keira Bell judgment was that it doesn’t matter how much information you give to children, it still doesn’t change their capacity to truly understand it. 28 year old Freddy went ahead with surgery and without the most basics of human physiology being spelled out in intimate detail, Freddy feels now that had that information been available Freddy would have made a different decision.

But here’s the clincher: look at the Instagram post again. Freddy thinks that if Freddy had the time all over again, Freddy would have asked for the nipples to remain intact. Freddy thinks that if the breast tissue had been removed and nipples had been left, then all of Freddy’s current breastfeeding woes and lack of supply wouldn’t be an issue. Freddy still wondered if some milk might have been produced.

So Freddy has had 7 years to think about the implications after it has happened, has thought about the information given prior to surgery, has given birth, but still seemingly has NO FUCKING CLUE that once the breasts were removed that there was never going to be any milk! Freddy couldn’t even adequately consent now to this procedure because Freddy still doesn’t understand.

Seven years! Still no understanding! Despite it happening to Freddy’s own body!

How the HELL can children understand?!

Bravo.

A post like this is why we need a like button.

ScreamingMeMe · 06/02/2022 22:40

A deep dive on Dr Gallagher by Lily Maynard:

lilymaynard.com/wielding-the-sidhbh-gallagher/

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 07/02/2022 07:36

Thanks for posting that. It makes for very difficult reading but this is the sort of stuff people should know and face up to if they want to defend the right of very young teenagers to access irreversible surgery.

I hope it would be impossible for Dr Gallagher to operate in this way in the UK. The fact that some of her patients travel to her clinic in Florida from the UK suggests that there is no local equivalent to her service. Surely ethical standards here are tighter than this?

FrancescaContini · 07/02/2022 07:58

[quote ScreamingMeMe]A deep dive on Dr Gallagher by Lily Maynard:

lilymaynard.com/wielding-the-sidhbh-gallagher/[/quote]
I couldn’t read all of it…it’s horrifying. A very manipulative, exploitative individual.

Whatwouldscullydo · 07/02/2022 08:28

Thanks for posting that. It makes for very difficult reading but this is the sort of stuff people should know and face up to if they want to defend the right of very young teenagers to access irreversible surgery

The surgery option with the removal of the nipples is even more horrific than the rest of it. If its not bad enough the hormones amd blockers remove any possibility of sexual function when they are older, the removal.of the nipples is like the final nail in the coffin for having anything left that might give them a chance to feel anything nice when they get into relationships as adults.

The people who they will end up in relationships with at this point, well that doesn't bare thinking about.

No one with any morals will continue to be with someone who doesn't enjoy any of it. Who does that leave...

SingToTheSky · 07/02/2022 08:39

Yep, I couldn’t get sterilised at 30 after 3 kids and several health/MH difficulties that mean I absolutely 100% cannot cope with another baby ever. I know there are financial reasons too as the surgery is much more involved than a vasectomy but it felt so patronising to not be able to make this decision for myself…

Especially knowing that my eldest could apparently go and get a fucking mastectomy if she declared she’s a boy.

It’s beyond heartbreaking, beyond terrifying.

Reading that trans manifesto pasted into another thread the other day - they mention eugenics. The irony of that when it’s the trans kids having their fertility destroyed without informed consent.

Whatwouldscullydo · 07/02/2022 08:44

Well you are 30 sing

There's no benefit to creating a legal argument that a 30 yr old can consent to anything.

However of it becomes legally possible that legal children can consent to having theor breasts removed, how can you then argue they can not consent to other things...

InvisibleDragon · 07/02/2022 08:59

ScreamingMeMe Thanks for posting the Dr Gallagher article. That's horrifying.

Something I'm struck by is how female-targeted Dr Gallagher's advertising is.

Summer is coming! shirtless selfie time- keep ’em coming is identical rhetoric to the widely condemned Are you beach body ready? billboards that featured in the Tube a few years back.

Love seeing these shirtless posts! You look amazing! Enjoy! Collecting and posting "progress photos" from satisfied clients is the same process followed by lifestyle/fitness "coaches" on Instagram. Only what you get from the IG coach is a $25 workout pamphlet and a 5% discount code for some athleisure wear. But with Dr Gallagher you're dropping $12k on an elective surgery that leaves you with permanent scarring and non-functional nipples. At least the fitness influencers have the integrity to mark their most egregious posts with #ad and to advise you to check with your doctor before making major lifestyle changes.

This is the kind of marketing that is successful with (or at least aimed at) women and teenage girls. Men are rarely exhorted to "like and subscribe" or to send sycophantic, self-deprecating emoji-laden messages to their idols. This is targeting extremely vulnerable children (yes children. 15 is a child. 13 is a child) and it's gross.

SingToTheSky · 07/02/2022 09:03

Well quite, scully

Am actually 35 now* but I guess that’s even worse… just a boring woman who knows what she wants from and for her own body eh Hmm

*how dare you mis-age me, etc

SingToTheSky · 07/02/2022 09:10

Have got involved via work with a project relating to a particular type of mental health education for young people… was looking at previous minutes/actions and was horrified to see that one session had focused entirely on gender and discussing the fact that gender referrals should be made without informing parents - the disparity between that idea and the fact that the MH stuff DOES need parents to be told - because safeguarding (duh!) doesn’t seem to have been recorded Hmm

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 07/02/2022 09:13

The economic argument against tubal ligation is extremely short-sighted. It must cost the NHS a lot more to look after a woman through a termination, or a pregnancy and birth, and then look after the child, and possibly also have to look after the woman as she copes with health problems created or exacerbated by the birth.

I was very fortunate that 20 years ago the NHS could afford to do it and I was able to get it through my GP when I turned 40 and told him that I was absolutely certain I would want no more children.

SingToTheSky · 07/02/2022 09:15

But it’s fine because when it comes to gender young children absolutely know what they want for the rest of their lives. Can’t get a tattoo or vote, but surgery - cool.

It’s not lost on me either, as an autistic/adhd mum with autistic/adhd kids, that poor executive function (as commonly features with neurodiversity) means we struggle much more than most to have any concept of time. Of cause and effect. Of permanence.

But being autistic is apparently a reason to be even more affirming of gender crisis, rather than looking beyond to see why the child is unhappy in themselves. Obviously. Hmm

SingToTheSky · 07/02/2022 09:17

That’s a good point about the long term costs, I get that the surgery itself is much more expensive but yes, worth it in terms of future savings for the NHS.

Not to mention the savings in benefits for all us feckless mothers popping out kids Hmm

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 07/02/2022 09:18

It's absolutely shocking. How can HCPs not be joining those dots too?

Clymene · 07/02/2022 09:21

That's a very good point @SingToTheSky. My autistic child can't tell the time and has very little ability to process time passing. I hadn't even thought about that aspect.

The idea that any referrals should be made without parental consent is horrifying. My child gets DLA in recognition of the fact that his care needs are higher than a NT child of his age. But despite that, he could get a referral to a gender clinic without my knowledge??! Fucking hell, I'm speechless.

SingToTheSky · 07/02/2022 09:44

I know :( it’s like somehow gender is a free pass to keeping parents out of the loop.

FrancescaContini · 07/02/2022 09:50

@InvisibleDragon

ScreamingMeMe Thanks for posting the Dr Gallagher article. That's horrifying.

Something I'm struck by is how female-targeted Dr Gallagher's advertising is.

Summer is coming! shirtless selfie time- keep ’em coming is identical rhetoric to the widely condemned Are you beach body ready? billboards that featured in the Tube a few years back.

Love seeing these shirtless posts! You look amazing! Enjoy! Collecting and posting "progress photos" from satisfied clients is the same process followed by lifestyle/fitness "coaches" on Instagram. Only what you get from the IG coach is a $25 workout pamphlet and a 5% discount code for some athleisure wear. But with Dr Gallagher you're dropping $12k on an elective surgery that leaves you with permanent scarring and non-functional nipples. At least the fitness influencers have the integrity to mark their most egregious posts with #ad and to advise you to check with your doctor before making major lifestyle changes.

This is the kind of marketing that is successful with (or at least aimed at) women and teenage girls. Men are rarely exhorted to "like and subscribe" or to send sycophantic, self-deprecating emoji-laden messages to their idols. This is targeting extremely vulnerable children (yes children. 15 is a child. 13 is a child) and it's gross.

I noticed the language she uses, too. It’s upbeat, snappy, persuasive, entirely mimicking the language used on the front cover of magazines aimed at women. Rhetorical questions, lots of !!!! Very “down with the kidz”.

Except instead of “Sick of your usual makeup routine? Try this!!” Or “Tired of your kitchen looking dated? We’ve got a quick fix!!” etc etc, it’s aimed at encouraging barely teenage girls to have double mastectomies AND hysterectomies “Back to normal 24 hours later!!!”

Those photos of very young women proudly displaying their chests (“Wanna get beach ready?!?!!”) where they once had breasts make me want to weep. The entire practice is absolutely fucking abhorrent.

FOJN · 07/02/2022 10:16

Thanks for the link to Lily Maynard's blog post about Dr Gallagher.

I didn't really want to read it, I anticipated the horror it documents. I feel that even if I cannot stop girls and young women being m*d today I can't look away and pretend it's not happening.

The evidence of self harm, the cheerleading parents, the words of the detransitioner, the 14 year old admitted for mental health care after surgery when she needed it more before, the language used to minimise the seriousness of the procedure...it's all too much.

WTF are the grown ups, where is the regulatory oversight, where are the peer viewed research papers, what has happened to medical ethics?

This surgeon is unlikely to ever face consequences because of informed consent.

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