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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Suzanne Moore on fire

105 replies

WarriorN · 27/01/2022 15:22

thecritic.co.uk/pennys-pointless-battle/

Oooh she's good!

OP posts:
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ArabellaScott · 28/01/2022 09:44

'Penny claims not to be a woman, and claims furthermore that women have no shared qualities as a group, so why identify with feminism at all?' - exactly.

ArabellaScott · 28/01/2022 09:45
  • from S Ditum's Times article.
NotBadConsidering · 28/01/2022 10:02

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a63ee364-7ed9-11ec-8532-85a58274df7c?shareToken=6bc986892d781057480ee6bd523ae87e

Sarah Ditum’s review. Worth it for this paragraph:

Because whatever you’re doing, it’s important to remember that Penny is doing something much more exciting and avant-garde. Do you think that you, in your unenlightened state, have ever had good sex? Penny would like to inform you that it can hardly compare to “the thrill of the single weekend I spent in Berlin in 2018”, which I suppose could refer either to an expert fingerbanging from a stranger in a fetish club or an outstanding currywurst.

🤣🤣🤣

WarriorN · 28/01/2022 10:50

And this:

from a section dismissing the idea of any substantial evolved differences between men and women): “Crisp slices of genuine scientific inquiry are battered in the heavy crumb of convenient fictions, deep fried in received wisdom and smothered in the special sauce of popular prejudice so they’re easier to swallow for those who already have their mouths full of comforting lies.” (Perhaps this is also about a currywurst.)

Cruet-set pot calling the IKEA cast iron kettle etc

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 28/01/2022 11:34

I did a search of The Times website and I can confirm that Sarah has accomplished the first inclusion of the word “fingerbanging” in the history of The Times 😆.

ScreamingMeMe · 28/01/2022 14:10

Somebody needs to have a word with Laurie's employers, agents and publishers.

Suzanne Moore on fire
Suzanne Moore on fire
Suzanne Moore on fire
ScreamingMeMe · 28/01/2022 14:10

Continuee

Suzanne Moore on fire
Suzanne Moore on fire
ArabellaScott · 28/01/2022 14:14

ermagawd they've misgendred they! Call Gwent Police!

RoyalCorgi · 28/01/2022 14:16

@ArabellaScott

'Penny claims not to be a woman, and claims furthermore that women have no shared qualities as a group, so why identify with feminism at all?' - exactly.
This is so on the nail it hurts.

How dare Laurie Penny claim to be standing up for women while simultaneously pretending she isn't one?

Torunette · 28/01/2022 14:50

"there is no universal experience of womanhood or manhood," says Penny.

This is like saying that there is no universal experience of being a human being, which sounds profound until someone points out that the universal experience of being a human being is that every human experiences the world as a human being, rather than, say, a bird or an elephant.

Time and again, I'm struck by this ideology's inability to perceive I don't even know what you would call it differences between things on a higher level than the individual instance? Maybe the term would be grander classifications? Meta-classifications?

And I can't help noticing it is a view that seems very specific to the English-speaking world. It is as though meaning is entirely subjective, but, by return, a particular individual's subjective perception must be treated as omniscient.

As an example, Penny claims that there is no universal experience of womanhood, but then everyone else has to accept that her subjective experience of "womanhood" is correct: i.e. there is no universal experience, except the one Penny says is the universal experience, which is that there isn't one.

This is a bit like saying "there are no metanarratives, but everyone needs to accept my metanarrative."

And it is so weird because postmodernity. as it was practised in the literary field, was that one could discern truth by almost 'overlaying' subjective perceptions to get to the "total phenomenon" of a concept, or a kind of Platonic blueprint: the Form, in other words.

I think the issue is here that Penny's understanding of universality is rather surface-level.

MiladyBerserko · 28/01/2022 21:54

I think, there is a mentoring element with Penny/Ditum and Helen Lewis during New Statesman days then it all went all a bit nutty.

Interesting optics on the respective Twitter feeds.

Clymene · 28/01/2022 22:13

What I don't get is this: Penny doesn't identify as a woman. But at the same time, they* acknowledge that women are subject to sexism and misogyny.

Surely then, women could just identify out of it and whoosh, no more sexism? Or is that men read you as a woman and then you're subject to misogyny, even if you don't identify as one?

Can anyone explain? I don't want to buy her book to understand

Clymene · 28/01/2022 22:18

@MiladyBerserko

I think, there is a mentoring element with Penny/Ditum and Helen Lewis during New Statesman days then it all went all a bit nutty.

Interesting optics on the respective Twitter feeds.

Reading online, I think it may have existed between Lewis and Penny. Definitely not Ditum though who has been giving Penny what for since 2014 from what I can see
MiladyBerserko · 28/01/2022 22:22

Het is a bit vanilla. 'They' are xo much more interesting.

Notahandmaid · 28/01/2022 22:40

@FOJN

but this article seems more like a character assassination than a critique of the principles

Did you even read it?

I was impressed with the use of preferred pronouns throughout, not a single mistake, that's quite an accomplishment. Of course it made it more difficult to know who was being referred to but at least no one will be offended.

I really enjoy Susan's (Grin) humour too.

There was a mistake and I tweeted Suzanne about it. Now corrected. At one point Suzanne referred to Laurie Penny as ‘she’. It shows how the cognitive dissonance we have to employ in applying pronouns that don’t make sense proves too much for us sometimes!
SantaClawsServiette · 29/01/2022 03:09

Tournette

It's more mundane, but it reminds me a little of the way many people struggle to understand how to think about statistical statements about groups vs statements about individuals, or that you really can't apply the former to the latter. Or many similar kinds of mistakes.

Or even how to think about relationships between groups that operate on a different level than relationships between individuals, or even individuals and groups.

PrincessNutella · 29/01/2022 04:25

thank you thank you!!! I was dying to read this!!!

Abhannmor · 29/01/2022 11:22

So lovely to see Suzanne in such great form. The shackles are off since she was forced out of the Grauniad.

StrangeLookingParasite · 29/01/2022 12:11

Who knows what Bindel’s pronouns are? She Who Must Be Obeyed is my guess.

This set me off right from the start!

Doomscrolling · 29/01/2022 13:23

Dictum’s review was absolutely brilliant. Thanks for the share token, @NotBadConsidering!

Doomscrolling · 29/01/2022 13:23

DITUM! Obstreperous autocorrect not behaving itself.

ShinyHappyPoster · 29/01/2022 13:29

I ended up clicking through and reading Penny's Wired wedding article. I find myself laughing at Penny's writing quite a lot but can never tell if they're being deliberately or inadvertently funny.
Suzanne is a star as always.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 29/01/2022 15:17

did anyone click through and read Laurie's twitter pronoun tantrum? It's a cracker

twitter.com/PennyRed/status/1486006942854168578?s=20

I wouldn't want to make anyone feel coerced into behaving with dignity

what, by referring to you in the plural Laurie? right you are

Grin
dolorsit · 29/01/2022 15:36

I know wiki shouldn't be taken as gospel proof but...

Suzanne Moore on fire
FirstGenerationMortificado · 29/01/2022 17:10

Have a pronoun tantrum in one tweet, then Tweet: To be clear, pronouns aren’t a personal priority for me.

WTF
Confused

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