Sperm stealing and men's rights - what do you think?

[loubeatty]

Hi guys,
Wanted to get your thoughts on a recent petition to make 'spurgling' - pretending you're on the pill when you're not to get pregnant - a serious sexual offence. Has anyone had any experience of this (or known friends who have)? (Is it just an urban legend, essentially?!) ...Do you think it should be a serious crime?

Are you going to come back @loubeatty

It would be impossible to prove.

I know quite a few women who fell pregnant accidentally, I don't know if it was on purpose, but the statistics suggest that at least some were.

If that is the case, a lot of women could be in hot water.

Tricking a man into becoming a father seems immoral to me, I know a baby is a natural outcome of sex but the chances are much lower if the female partner is on the pill, not putting holes in condoms etc.

Will no one think of the poor men and their right to ... choose not to use barrier protection when having sex. Or to walk any from any responsibility for children they jointly conceive while choosing not to use barrier protection when having sex. Or something.

Will the onus be on the woman to show she had a prescription for oral contraception, read the leaflet, took it correctly then put in place several systems to ensure she remembered every day? Or perhaps some expectation of an implant as a default.

Is the sanction a mandatory abortion so the man doesn't have the psychological discomfort of having a baby he wouldn't have to carry then pay for though he doesn't carry the baby anyway? Or just not to have to pay anything though he might choose to get in touch when the DC is an adult if he wants to? If so, many, many men seem to manage that just fine from the statistics.

The solution is quite simple, "wrap it up" before engaging in sex with someone you don't trust or want to parent with.

@CloseYourEyesAndSee

No. Men need to use condoms or have vasectomies if they don't want children. If they trust a partner who then lies to them that is terrible but it's not a criminal offence.

But, to play devil’s advocate, what’s the difference between that and a man removing a condom during sex? Is it that a condom also protects against STDs and isn’t something the woman can take responsibility for alone ie no one can say “well if she didn’t want an STD she should have done X” in the way you’ve said “if he didn’t want children, he should have done x”? I guess the response might be that if the woman didn’t want to risk an STD, she shouldn’t have had sex at all - this isn’t my opinion, I’m just trying to work out why removing a condom is different to not being on the pill. If you both agree to have sex with the understanding that a condom is used, and then the condom is removed without one party knowing, it that different to both agreeing to have sex on the understanding that the pill is being taken, but actually it isn’t? It’s still a lie that changes the “terms” with which consent was given? Maybe the man shouldn’t have agreed to sex on those terms but he did, and I’m not sure his foolishness means it’s less of an issue that she lied.

If a man wants to be sure he doesn't have any children, then he needs to take full responsibility for that.

I'm so tired of the ever growing list of things that are apparently a womans job to do.

How do you tell the difference a woman who did do that or the man who said he had a vasectomy when he hadn't or the man who never asked if a woman was on birth control who both SAY they thought she was on contraception?
Does that also mean a rapist should be able to take his victim to court because she wasn't on contraception when he raped her?

It's all going to come down to he said/she said.

how do you tell the difference between a woman....

I have a son and a daughter, and having thought about it I think I would be equally upset if either were lied to by a partner about contraception and pushed into parenthood as a result.
And what about the child in all this? Why would anyone bring a child into the world with someone they knew didn't want to be a parent, or with a fling or one night stand?
Seems like very dubious behaviour to me.

But, to play devil’s advocate, what’s the difference between that and a man removing a condom during sex?
Is it that a condom also protects against STDs and isn’t something the woman can take responsibility for alone ie no one can say “well if she didn’t want an STD she should have done X” in the way you’ve said “if he didn’t want children, he should have done x”?

A man removing a condom during sex is a similar act, ethically. However, choosing to have unprotected sex knowing that you are trusting your partner to use contraception isn't quite the same as starting sex and your partner removing the contraception covertly part way through.
There is also the fact that pregnancy is a medical condition that only affects women not men so they cannot be seen as equivalent.
It is also far more likely that a man will pass an STI to a woman than vice versa.
As ever, our biology means that our risks and experiences are different.

"A man removing a condom during sex is a similar act, ethically". - well if you put aside the risk of STDs, the woman not consenting to the man ejaculating inside the woman and that in some nations it constitutes rape or sexual assault.

@Zilla1

"A man removing a condom during sex is a similar act, ethically". - well if you put aside the risk of STDs, the woman not consenting to the man ejaculating inside the woman and that in some nations it constitutes rape or sexual assault.

Did you read the rest of my post?

Yes but there is an ethical dimension to all of the medical and other issues you correctly set out under risks and experiences so couldn't agree more with the content of your post except the statement I highlighted.

@PenguindreamsofDraco

Bend and snap

Works every time!

Only 83% of the time

I am heartily sick of the whole of society pretending there's nothing men can do to stop women getting pregnant. They're not fucking infants. Presumably they've heard of condoms. If they don't wear one, they should assume there's a good chance of pregnancy regardless of what the woman says to him.

@ScholesPanda

I have a son and a daughter, and having thought about it I think I would be equally upset if either were lied to by a partner about contraception and pushed into parenthood as a result. And what about the child in all this? Why would anyone bring a child into the world with someone they knew didn't want to be a parent, or with a fling or one night stand? Seems like very dubious behaviour to me.

I think a lot of women on this thread would be singing from a different hymn sheet if it were their ‘dear’ son involved

'Siri, how can I attract some MRAs to mumsnet?'

@RepentMotherfucker

'Siri, how can I attract some MRAs to mumsnet?'

😉

It's not slipped my notice that OP has still not returned yet.

So much plopping today

I think men would be best served by campaigning for the development and widespread distribution of a male contraceptive pi^ll
^
Of course it's easier to blame women than to take responsibility.

Just as it's easy to wear a condom.

Thanks everyone for these interesting responses – didn't expect so many, but really fascinating POVs. I think there's truth to many of the different perspectives on this, it's difficult to unpack in a simple way.

I saw a post about attracting MRAs - please know this is absolutely not my intention! I saw the petition (it's been rejected, but here: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/582201) and am looking to write about it as it's a murky area and worrying how prevalent the discussion is among MRAs on reddit. I'm wondering how prevalent this act is outside of internet threads

When you say "looking to write about it", are you saying you're a journo fishing for ideas here?

No. Becoming pregnant by deception is a desperate and unwise act, but not one that should be criminalised. And as everyone else has pointed out, a man who wants to ensure a particular sexual encounter does not result in a pregnancy can take responsibility for the disposal of his ejaculate.

@Boogaloony

I was kind of thinking about this the other day after reading about the rapper Drake. Apparently he had consensual sex with a condoms and then afterwards went into the bathroom, removed the filled condom and put hot sauce in it to kill the sperm. Then his sex partner went into the bathroom and injected the semen into her and started screaming about the burns. Apparently she is now trying to sue him?!

I think as a society Wet need to reset the view of unwanted/unexpected pregnancy. So It's not the woman's fault she gets pregnant, it's the man's fault for irresponsible ejaculation. We need to teach our mates that their reproductive autonomy ends the second they ejaculate into a woman.

It should ABSOLUTELY be a crime if a woman digs out a used condom out of the trash and used it to create a life wether it's for a link to the genetics or financial reasons. That is a horrific thing to do. And it's not the same as a a woman saying she is on the pill but not being on the pill. The man, if he does not want a child, should either abstain, have a vasectomy or use a condom and spermicide and dispose of them securely. To say " but she said she was on the pill" is a cop out that just shifts blame to the woman

I'm torn by thinking what an awful thing for her to do and feeling a bit sorry for her because that must have been very painful.

Hi guys,
What about the menz?
Did you consider how unfair you are being to the supreme beings with your centering of wimpunds?

The reality is that feckless men would like everyone to believe women are always doing this but it's not true.

She tricked me is a common lie told by men who don't want to take responsibility.