Sperm stealing and men's rights - what do you think?

[loubeatty]

Hi guys,
Wanted to get your thoughts on a recent petition to make 'spurgling' - pretending you're on the pill when you're not to get pregnant - a serious sexual offence. Has anyone had any experience of this (or known friends who have)? (Is it just an urban legend, essentially?!) ...Do you think it should be a serious crime?

No they have been together for over 20 years he cheats she probably does the same she got her man and her kids though so it's all good to her

@Linguini

Or would you be furious with the man for lying?

Well I believe that's why Julian Assange got in so much trouble.

But it's glaringly incomparable.

"Barebacking" is a huge problem in the prostitution trade. Men take the condom off halfway through, don't care if they get the woman pregnant, they are getting another human pregnant and they can run off. The woman is left with an unwanted baby.

This scenario, "spurgling/spealing" the baby is wanted and it's the man who's not always wanted. It's more comparable to an act of self harm than harm onto another.

Well that's if you don't count penetrating a sleeping almost-stranger and pinning another's arms down while getting down to the business. Deliberate stealthing really was the least of what got that gentleman "into trouble".

I find this really difficult to care about, to be honest. In a world where women are regularly raped, murdered and otherwise abused by men, with shockingly few consequences for those men, bleating about sperm stealing feels like underhanded whataboutery, designed to distract from the real and pressing problem of male violence against women and girls.

If we're going down this road then...

"...any masturbatory emissions, where the sperm is clearly not seeking an egg, could be termed reckless abandonment."

Yes, it should be a serious crime. Women would be hypocrites if they say otherwise. I guess it would be difficult to prove.

It's very simple for men really, if he doesn't want a pregnancy all he has to do is control what happens to his sperm, he can use a condom and dispose of it carefully, or he can keep it safe in his body and abstain from sex. Once he has deposited it in a woman's vagina there is a chance of pregnancy, but does it even belong to him any more, legally?He does have to be wary of the growing number of gangs of hormonal women roaming the streets in search of fresh, fertile semen of course, oh no wait, that's right, he doesn't.

@Linguini

Surely most of the risk of "spurgling" is on the woman. She'll be the one raising a baby either on her own or with a husband who doesn't want the baby, who can leave of he wants and exes are notorious for dodging child maintenance. She might get normal health complications that any pregnant women can get.

It's really all risk on the woman. Men don't really need to worry about this, not seriously.

There's also the fact that "oops DH I'm pregnant" and DH is overjoyed sometimes. Who doesn't love babies?

Bad people. That's who.
Bad people don't like babies.

Well not really. 🙄 You are assuming too much here.

@Lifeisnteasy

But if we are purely focussing on pregnancy which is the point of this thread.

Male contraceptive alternatives exist.

If a female goes home with a male who lies about their fertility, she can then also take precautions after the event.

Do people not use condoms anymore? What happens if its not an unplanned pregnancy but an STI? Who would be at fault then?

I really think it would be much easier if we could treat sex partners as fully human people rather than adversaries and sex as something that can be mutually pleasurable rather than a transaction, but I'm old so I'm aware things have changed a lot. For the better? I'm not so sure.

I would be very uncomfortable with any law that penalised women for the natural, healthy functions of our bodies. The natural outcome of intercourse for healthy men and women is that, at some frequency, the woman will become pregnant. Even tubal ligation is not 100% effective. It's not good if people (male or female) lie to their partners, especially about something so intimate and impactful. But even if no one lies, and everyone is behaving "responsibly" the reality is that there is a chance of pregnancy for any heterosexual coupling.

@QueeniesCroft

I find this really difficult to care about, to be honest. In a world where women are regularly raped, murdered and otherwise abused by men, with shockingly few consequences for those men, bleating about sperm stealing feels like underhanded whataboutery, designed to distract from the real and pressing problem of male violence against women and girls.

Doesn't it just?

Just like rape it's one person's word against another. So no real chance of convicting either. Just protect yourself and double contraception so use a condom and insist on implant only or no sex. That is my approach.

Lifeisnteasy child support is to support the child not the mother. A man who fathers a child having lied about wearing a condom (although that's visible, not sure how he'd lie about it... maybe pierced it or not put it on correctly) isn't guilty of a sexual offence any more than a woman lying about her contraception is.

Both parents should be responsible for any children they create regardless of whether they were mutually planned - for the child's sake, not the sake of the other parent!

It's the woman taking the physical health risks of pregnancy but its the child who suffers if either parent says "tough, I didn't plan you so I'm not paying towards feeding, clothing, housing and raising you"

I think lying about bedingt on the pill should have the same legal consequences as secretly removing a condom while having sex.
Yeah, it might be hard to prove but that shouldn't make it legal

I'm not sure this will even be an issue as I think the majority of men see contraception purely as a women's issue.

About 10 years ago, I knew two women who were single in their 30's, both stable women in secure jobs, thinking about their biological clocks. They decided that, whilst they weren't going to actively try to get pregnant, they were going to stop taking precautions against it and see what happened.

They were completely honest with every man they slept with, "I am not using contraception, I am happy for you to do so if you want, but if I get pregnant I am keeping the baby'.

One wasn't in a relationship, had sex with different people, the other in a casual fwb situation with a man already in a relationship with someone else.

Not one man chose to use a condom.

One got pregnant, and now is a fab single mum, the other didn't and sadly won't have children now, as she's too old.

Surely this is a case of two adults each taking responsibility for their own contraception. The woman ensures she does not let her egg become fertilised. The man ensures he does not allow his sperm to escape, either by using a condom or by having the snip.

I'd never ever rely on a man for contraception. Men need to stop expecting women to do it for them.

Seems pretty straightforward to me !

I think it should be a crime, yes. It's immoral. But its also impossible to prove.

Far better for both men and women to take individual responsibility. If he doesn't want to be a father, he wears a condom or doesn't have sex. If she doesn't want to be pregnant, she goes on the pill (or method of choice) or doesn't have sex. Maybe that means they double up, even better for them if they don't both want a child.

Its takes two to tango. We all know that one of the risks of intercourse is pregnancy. Don’t see your petician going anywhere. Its a bit extreme.

@delurkasaurus

If we're going down this road then...

"...any masturbatory emissions, where the sperm is clearly not seeking an egg, could be termed reckless abandonment."

Marvellous

Bend and snap

Maybe scientists could invent something that allows men to take control of it if they don't want a child
Some sort of sheath perhaps that stops the sperm from entering the woman.

Maybe one day that will be invented.

All I see here is a way for men to claim it's the woman's fault.

@Blossom64265

Any lie that is so egregious that it would cause the other person to change the decision to have sex is a violation of free and informed consent.

I wish there was a way for the law to reflect that, but in reality, it would be incredibly difficult to prosecute.

That said, any man who has condom free sex with a woman he doesn’t know well enough to trust about birth control is an idiot. He also certainly doesn’t know her well enough to trust her to be having sex without protection from disease.

I agree strongly with your first statement.

And your last statement, I guess it’s true in an ideal world but people are capable of lying to partners of many years. So I think it’s a little unfair to say “don’t have sex with someone you can’t trust”. I trust DH, but it’s not impossible for me to be wrong in that judgement. DH and I don’t use condoms and the reason for that is that I trust he isn’t having an affair and therefore STDs are not a concern (and he trusts me on that as well). If it turned out I was wrong in my trust, and I caught chlamydia because actually he is having an affair, am I an idiot for having unprotected sex with someone I can’t trust, or he is a liar and in the wrong.
Someone could lie about being on the pill regardless of how long you’ve known them or what the relationship is.

No.
Men need to use condoms or have vasectomies if they don't want children.
If they trust a partner who then lies to them that is terrible but it's not a criminal offence.

You would land up with women who fell pregnant because contraception is not 100%* being charged with a crime, when actually, they fell foul of the law of averages.

(*which raises the question, "why not?". Medical advances have been huge in the last century. You'd think controlling fertility would be one of the easier problems to solve)

My knee jerk reaction to this is it’s absolutely awful and men should have access to protections from this.
Then my logical brain kicks in and I realise they do have access to protection from this happening… condoms