Help needed to unpick this

[tantastica]

First time posting on this board, hoping others who have thought about this issue can help me unpick my own thoughts please.

Long post to avoid drip feeding, please bear with me.

My DD is in Reception and frequently talks about wanting to be a boy. She insists we call her by boy names, use "he" instead of "she".

She refuses things she associates as being "girls" clothes and will only wear clothes she thinks are "boys". We give her whichever clothes she wants, ditto short haircut, we have never tried to force dresses/pink/glitter on her.

Recently DD's teacher asked to meet us, the teacher says DD has said "some people have penises and some don't" and that the teacher felt the conversation was going in the direction that some people have one body but feel like they're something else.

Teacher wants to check what we're discussing with DD about gender (I think before she continues the conversation with DD).

I am glad the teacher is asking us but am feeling upset and stressed about the idea that someone could teach my DD that you can feel like you're different from your body. I would much prefer to keep explaining to my DD that she is a girl, has girls genitals, and that being a girl is a brilliant thing to be. I also want to keep teaching her that she can like whatever clothes, toys, activities she likes but she doesn't have to be a boy to do so.

I'm not sure what to say to the teacher. Are there any articles etc to help parents think through these issues?

I'm sure others with more knowledge will be along but I think this is the sort of thing that the Safe Schools Alliance covers.

I find it remarkable that a teacher would respond in the way you describe to a simple and correct statement of fact by your DD. Surely all that's needed from a teacher is to agree that, yes, boys and girls have different bodies, and then move on to whatever the next learning activity is.

Thanks I will look at Safe Schools.

Apparently DD has mentioned several times she wants to be a boy. And then this conversation with the teacher was a 1:1 conversation, not a class discussion.

I’d ask your daughter what she thinks being a boy means.

@Sexnotgender

I’d ask your daughter what she thinks being a boy means.

This. And also where has your DD heard that “some people have penises and some don’t”? It seems to be very bizarrely worded for a young girl. My DCs would at that age have said that “boys have a Willy and girls have a Minnie” or whatever age appropriate names they called them. Girls are not someone who doesn’t have a penis

I think it's good that the teacher has spoken with you. Have you agreed how you want the school to approach this?

@RoyKentsChestHair We've always used the terms penis, vagina, labia etc with DD ever since she started pointing and asking what things are. She's interested in the differences between the sexes.

@Beamur

I think it's good that the teacher has spoken with you. Have you agreed how you want the school to approach this?

I'm glad the teacher has spoken to us. No, I've not decided what to say at the meeting. I don't know how to express my thoughts and am worried the school will say I'm not being inclusive or that I mustn't try and prevent DD from being a boy.

@RoyKentsChestHair is this a wind up? girls/women ARE people who don’t have a penis. Especially to a small primary child, that’s a pretty easy (and factually accurate) way to understand it. Also- it’s becoming increasingly accepted that teaching children biologically accurate terms such as penis and vulva/vagina is the way to go. It’s by far the best in terms of safeguarding.

[quote GCNC]@RoyKentsChestHair is this a wind up? girls/women ARE people who don’t have a penis. Especially to a small primary child, that’s a pretty easy (and factually accurate) way to understand it. Also- it’s becoming increasingly accepted that teaching children biologically accurate terms such as penis and vulva/vagina is the way to go. It’s by far the best in terms of safeguarding.[/quote]
No it’s not a wind up. I don’t mean that girls CAN have a penis. I mean that defining someone by the absence of one is very much a genderist view. I’m just wondering where she would have heard the line that “some people have one and some don’t” at the age of 4/5, as most kids know that girls and boys have different genitals, not penises or an absence of a penis.

I think the difficulty with 'girls are people who don't have a penis' is it defines girls/women in relation to men.

Like the male body is the 'standard' one, and women are just men with the dangly bit cut off. Malformed men, if you like.

As and of itself, that's objectionable but pretty harmless. Except when it comes to, for example, medical research. Which is almost invariably done on male volunteers. And where the results are assumed to simply transfer onto the penis-less. That has the potential to harm women.

So you probably could rattle off all the signs and symptoms of heart attack, right? Crushing chest pain, radiating down the left arm? For years, that was what I was taught as the 'classic' presentation. Fine, if it were true for 100% of the population. But it's only true for 50% The ones with penises. Women, it turns out, have different heart attack symptoms. And I, at least, was never taught what they are.

We're not simply penis-free men, we're our own different but complete biology.

She's interested in the differences between the sexes.

Other than one has a penis and the other a vulva- nothing. So what changes in her life would happen if she was a boy (according to her?)
What boys or men are in her life? If she starts a sentence “if I was a boy” how would it end?
My dd who is now a mother of two and a perfectly normal woman wanted to be a dog age 4/5 and a boy age 6/7- she had a dog name and ate off the floor… and a boy name, hair cut off and “boy clothes” out of the boys section of the shops… I didn’t call her he. I called her the boy name she chose when I remembered… it passed.

You don't have to be "inclusive" when it comes to your DD herself - who else is there to include?? You're there to support your DD in her development and learning, in whatever way is appropriate for her.

The teacher should not in any way say that you should/must allow your DD to "be a boy". If they suggest that then they are seriously over stepping their remit.

Im sure there was recent clarification from the DoE that schools shouldn't be teaching the belief that people can be born in the wrong body. Very young children like this really don't need adults suggesting that sort of metaphysical belief is a reality, and that they can possibly swap bodies at some future point.

It's us (parents) who have said girls have labia and a vagina and boys have a penis. It's not come from the school.

Presumably she's 4 OP? Insist the school respond neutrally to her. Absolutely no thoughtless "affirming". Brutally, why is the teacher having little talks with a reception age child about her identity? What are her qualifications to do this? And definitely no involving any of the toxic organisations desperate to involve even the youngest of children in their beliefs.
Watch and wait. Hopefully they're giving an inclusive message and a non sexist classroom. They need to be focusing on her education - that's what they are experts in - and not dabble in any perceived issues re her identity.

I understand that you want to maintain a constructive relationship with the school but you need to set out some boundaries about this. Don't be afraid - just calmly and assertively explain that it's not the teacher's role to have any 1 - 1 discussions with such a young child about what sex they are. They can work on some neutral responses to her comments if they find it difficult to know what to say but nothing that gets into discussions about what sex she is. Private chats are way beyond their expertise .
This is your area of responsibility and not some untrained naive teacher who's been trained by the likes of Mermaid and Stonewall with damaging gender woowoo.

I would much prefer to keep explaining to my DD that she is a girl, has girls genitals, and that being a girl is a brilliant thing to be. I also want to keep teaching her that she can like whatever clothes, toys, activities she likes but she doesn't have to be a boy to do so.

I think this is superb, for what it's worth. Is there any reason you can't say this to the teacher?

So what changes in her life would happen if she was a boy (according to her?)
What boys or men are in her life? If she starts a sentence “if I was a boy” how would it end?

This is a really good question. I will ask her.

She has her older brother, who she gets on well with, and her Dad.

i would much prefer to keep explaining to my DD that she is a girl, has girls genitals, and that being a girl is a brilliant thing to be. I also want to keep teaching her that she can like whatever clothes, toys, activities she likes but she doesn't have to be a boy to do so
To be honest, this is what I would say too. The vast majority of children who question their gender as young children will come to a decision about their identity in their own time. Most 'desist' and this is something that has been around and happening for a long time.
Whilst the school may have policies around inclusion, they cannot entirely overrule your instructions. I'd check their website and also read up on other sources for your own rights.

I'd also be involving the Head tantastica. Sadly there are countless well meaning young teachers who will run with these ideas - she could do so much unintentional damage to a young child with some unthought out intervention and you need to school to ensure that your young child's development and psychology is not influenced by untrained adults stepping out of their role. I think I'd ask to meet the Head before you speak again with the teacher and ask why the teacher is even discussing this with your child? The Head should step in and put a stop to it.

Reception?

She 4 or 5?

Just to check.

That's the prime age where children are totally insistent about what is for girls and what for boys

@Goatsaregreat

Presumably she's 4 OP? Insist the school respond neutrally to her. Absolutely no thoughtless "affirming". Brutally, why is the teacher having little talks with a reception age child about her identity? What are her qualifications to do this? And definitely no involving any of the toxic organisations desperate to involve even the youngest of children in their beliefs. Watch and wait. Hopefully they're giving an inclusive message and a non sexist classroom. They need to be focusing on her education - that's what they are experts in - and not dabble in any perceived issues re her identity.

I understand that you want to maintain a constructive relationship with the school but you need to set out some boundaries about this. Don't be afraid - just calmly and assertively explain that it's not the teacher's role to have any 1 - 1 discussions with such a young child about what sex they are. They can work on some neutral responses to her comments if they find it difficult to know what to say but nothing that gets into discussions about what sex she is. Private chats are way beyond their expertise .
This is your area of responsibility and not some untrained naive teacher who's been trained by the likes of Mermaid and Stonewall with damaging gender woowoo.

Thanks this is really helpful, I agree I want them to respond neutrally. I will try and think of some neutral responses to suggest to them (if they ask).

@Motorina

I would much prefer to keep explaining to my DD that she is a girl, has girls genitals, and that being a girl is a brilliant thing to be. I also want to keep teaching her that she can like whatever clothes, toys, activities she likes but she doesn't have to be a boy to do so.

I think this is superb, for what it's worth. Is there any reason you can't say this to the teacher?

Thanks @Motorina , yes maybe I can just say this. Maybe I'm getting too worried about how I come across.

@CheeseMmmm

Just to check.

That's the prime age where children are totally insistent about what is for girls and what for boys

Ah that's interesting. Yes, she's 4.

Hey, OP.

Don't panic! Reception is young, right? (We don't have this in Scotland, is it sort of pre-school?). 4 is so young, I would tend to treat this kind of discussion very lightly and not pay it too much mind.

'Children may show an interest in clothes or toys that society tells us are more often associated with the opposite gender. They may be unhappy with their physical sex characteristics.

However, this type of behaviour is reasonably common in childhood and is part of growing up. It does not mean that all children behaving this way have gender dysphoria or other gender identity issues.'

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Some people do have dysphoria. The majority will 'desist', and the NHS advocates watchful waiting. Should you need more support, this group helps parents of children with dysphoria:

bayswatersupport.org.uk/

'would much prefer to keep explaining to my DD that she is a girl, has girls genitals, and that being a girl is a brilliant thing to be. I also want to keep teaching her that she can like whatever clothes, toys, activities she likes but she doesn't have to be a boy to do so.'

Sounds pretty good to me.

Hopefully they're giving an inclusive message and a non sexist classroom

Idk about England, but in Scotland schools are generally quite good on being non-sexist and allowing and encouraging children to play with whatever toys they wish, etc.