Help needed to unpick this

[tantastica]

First time posting on this board, hoping others who have thought about this issue can help me unpick my own thoughts please.

Long post to avoid drip feeding, please bear with me.

My DD is in Reception and frequently talks about wanting to be a boy. She insists we call her by boy names, use "he" instead of "she".

She refuses things she associates as being "girls" clothes and will only wear clothes she thinks are "boys". We give her whichever clothes she wants, ditto short haircut, we have never tried to force dresses/pink/glitter on her.

Recently DD's teacher asked to meet us, the teacher says DD has said "some people have penises and some don't" and that the teacher felt the conversation was going in the direction that some people have one body but feel like they're something else.

Teacher wants to check what we're discussing with DD about gender (I think before she continues the conversation with DD).

I am glad the teacher is asking us but am feeling upset and stressed about the idea that someone could teach my DD that you can feel like you're different from your body. I would much prefer to keep explaining to my DD that she is a girl, has girls genitals, and that being a girl is a brilliant thing to be. I also want to keep teaching her that she can like whatever clothes, toys, activities she likes but she doesn't have to be a boy to do so.

I'm not sure what to say to the teacher. Are there any articles etc to help parents think through these issues?

@CheeseMmmm

Just to check.

That's the prime age where children are totally insistent about what is for girls and what for boys

Yup. I can remember my DD howling and refusing to wear a black cardigan because it was a 'boys' cardigan...

Yes, probably 4 is when they start noticing things are 'coded' for girls and boys.

Lots of good suggestions OP.

Remember the teacher has said they felt the conversation was going in the direction that some people have one body but feel like they're something else They felt!

This is an issue with the teacher. It may in the long run be something that your child explores but at her age, life should be uncomplicated and free from sex stereotypes / expectations. Good luck with this.

“RoyKentsChestHair

Sexnotgender
I’d ask your daughter what she thinks being a boy means.
This. And also where has your DD heard that “some people have penises and some don’t”? It seems to be very bizarrely worded for a young girl. My DCs would at that age have said that “boys have a Willy and girls have a Minnie” or whatever age appropriate names they called them.”

@RoyKentsChestHair

I would have though this once about ‘age appropriate words’ but now parents are advised to start right at the outset with telling very young children the real word. Apparently it is to do with safeguarding as it can give the child power in any situation of possible abuse. I don’t know all the details but my daughter told me this.

OP I think you should explain to the teacher that you have simply explained the facts to her, that you appreciate her bringing this up with you, but you do not want your DD to think her body is wrong or lacking in anyway by being female.

Taken from the Department of Education guidance on sex education lessons. www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#creating-an-inclusive-classroom

We are aware that topics involving gender and biological sex can be complex and sensitive matters to navigate. You should not reinforce harmful stereotypes, for instance by suggesting that children might be a different gender based on their personality and interests or the clothes they prefer to wear. Resources used in teaching about this topic must always be age-appropriate and evidence based. Materials which suggest that non-conformity to gender stereotypes should be seen as synonymous with having a different gender identity should not be used and you should not work with external agencies or organisations that produce such material. While teachers should not suggest to a child that their non-compliance with gender stereotypes means that either their personality or their body is wrong and in need of changing, teachers should always seek to treat individual students with sympathy and support.

You should work together with parents on any decisions regarding your school’s treatment of their child, in line with the school’s safeguarding policy and the statutory guidance on working together to safeguard children

That age they become v obsessed with things for girls v boys.

Also many believe they are animals etc.

It doesn't mean anything about anything.

In current climate I'd go along with name etc. I have been merrily agreeing with DD that she's a certain animal from about age 4 to now. She's at secondary school

They at this age usually very insistent. And they can spout really old fashioned stereotypes and apparently it's a fact.

Once on here kid said.
Doctors are men.
(Mum was a doctor).

Mummy doesn't have a job she stays at home.
(Mummy did go out to work!).

Child says to another. You can't have that it's for boys.

Yep. And the parties. Girls princess dresses wall to wall, boys superhero complete with silly fake muscles. Around here anyway.

It's hard to reason with them when they're in that phase.

It passes though!

Incidentally- not sure relevant.

I noticed the difference between girls and boys treatment and couldn't understand it and didn't like it from far back as remember 4/5.

I didn't say want to be boy. But I knew loads of things about expectations how adults behaved etc just because I was girl really pissed me off.

Some children do notice young.

DD as well said want to be boy at about 8. Chat everything for everyone. Sex is sex shouldn't mean anything about what wear etc.

It can be a reaction to noticing that the girl thing is for you not great, boy things better.

Or its just like saying I'm a badger called Horace.

Tell school aware of this only little no need to fuss. You're fine with her wanting certain clothes etc.

And hopefully they will back off.

I’m just wondering where she would have heard the line that “some people have one and some don’t” at the age of 4/5, as most kids know that girls and boys have different genitals, not penises or an absence of a penis.
My 3yo ds thinks exactly that - that boys have penises and girls/mummy’s don’t. He hasn’t focussed enough to notice any other differences, my not having a penis while he and his brother and his dad do is very much THE difference. This sounds perfectly normal to me!

How to put this... That a little boy sees penis as v important indeed is not unusual!

I'm not sure girls see it the same way tbh no matter what Freud said!

The phrasing is interesting.

Both cases. Have s penis. Or don't. V male as default.

Not have a vulva or don't. Or some penis some vulva/vagina/whatever (sadly no equivalent to willy for girls).

For girls, and for women. Willies are just not nearly as interesting or important as they are to those who have them.

I certainly never saw things when little as. I am in the group that hasn't got a willy. I mean. Obviously!

*I noticed the difference between girls and boys treatment and couldn't understand it and didn't like it from far back as remember 4/5.

I didn't say want to be boy. But I knew loads of things about expectations how adults behaved etc just because I was girl really pissed me off.

Some children do notice young.*

I think this is very possible.

Thank you for the link @Beamur

If it helps, my much younger cousin broached similar topics with me at the same age as your DD, but that was about 20 years ago. She used to wave a stick around from her trousers pretending it was her willy. None of us really thought anything of it back then and nothing dramatic happened, she is perhaps rather bright and original, no hint of dysphoria. So if it was me, I would say, keep it low key to the teacher and say something like “if I do say so myself, I think she is a rather clever and sensitive child who is noticing that boys and girls get treated in different ways so she is exploring that with her 5 year old mind. Let’s make sure we answer factually any questions she asks, and keep each other informed, but not make her feel like it’s a big deal or that we are worried about her questions”.

I highly recommend the book My Body Is Me by Rachel Rooney. It emphasises that we are our bodies and that our bodies are wonderful, we can jump, climb etc.

It also shows that we all have different tastes etc, so some people like splashing in mud, others like wearing pink- it does not imply that these things make you a boy or a girl however like so much regressive genderism does.

www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/49098291-my-body-is-me

Also fwiw the teacher could be an ally (unless they have been Mermaided/Stonewalled). But agree that for the teacher, just keeping the focus on basics like non-gendered stuff in the classroom - no “heroes and princesses” dress-up days; correct naming of body parts; teaching kids about respecting boundaries. Everyone can agree on that and there is no need for the teacher to get into gender identity, or for you to have to have a conversation about it.

At this age kids talk a lot about boys things and girls things. My DD went to a great nursery which encouraged all the kids to play with everything so got a big shock in reception when other kids started telling her only boys play pirates etc. Possibly she's being told that only boys do certain things, these are things she likes, and therefore she wants to be a boy to do so.

I would just continue to reaffirm that boys and girls can do all things, and ask the teacher to do the same. Surely a reception teacher will see kids wanting to be girls, boys, animals etc all the time and should be able to not make a big deal of it?

My sister was obsessed with being a boy when starting in reception - she even wrote to Father Christmas asking for a willy. It was probably because the kids at school wouldn't let her play football at break because she was a girl.

At this age kids are so focused on what is for girls and for boys and they police it among themselves even without adult intervention. I think I'd focus on ensuring the teacher is repeating that there's no such thing as girl toys and boy toys and not making a thing of a four year old going through a developmentally normal phase.

I may be wrong here but somebody else will be able to clarify. Considering the Forstater judgement has affirmed that people have the right to hold gender critical beliefs.. is it reasonable to insist that the school does not teach your child counter to your personal beliefs? This works with religious beliefs and my understanding is the law considers gender critical beliefs to occupy the same category and to be treated in the same way.

A bit off-topic but I don’t like the ‘penis as norm’ idea either. I can understand it coming from a boy but coming from a girl not so much so. My DS said it and I turned it round so that it was more like ‘some people have a vulva, some don’t’. It sounds trivial, but the ‘boys are best’ idea starts early. If I saw any sign that my DC were thinking like that - or that girls were best - I’d be very careful to offset it.

I don’t think this teacher was necessarily hinting she was going to push anything on your DD. Perhaps she was just afraid of getting something wrong and wanted to talk to you.

I’d tell her that you emphasise to your child that girls can do whatever they want, etc As said above, young children have very strict ideas about conforming to gender stereotypes. It’s important to model that those stereotypes aren’t true.

I found this video interesting re stereotypes and how children change as they get older:

(You might have to copy and paste)

@Alayalaya

I may be wrong here but somebody else will be able to clarify. Considering the Forstater judgement has affirmed that people have the right to hold gender critical beliefs.. is it reasonable to insist that the school does not teach your child counter to your personal beliefs? This works with religious beliefs and my understanding is the law considers gender critical beliefs to occupy the same category and to be treated in the same way.

That's a good question.

@BreatheAndFocus

A bit off-topic but I don’t like the ‘penis as norm’ idea either. I can understand it coming from a boy but coming from a girl not so much so. My DS said it and I turned it round so that it was more like ‘some people have a vulva, some don’t’. It sounds trivial, but the ‘boys are best’ idea starts early. If I saw any sign that my DC were thinking like that - or that girls were best - I’d be very careful to offset it.

I don’t think this teacher was necessarily hinting she was going to push anything on your DD. Perhaps she was just afraid of getting something wrong and wanted to talk to you.

I’d tell her that you emphasise to your child that girls can do whatever they want, etc As said above, young children have very strict ideas about conforming to gender stereotypes. It’s important to model that those stereotypes aren’t true.

I found this video interesting re stereotypes and how children change as they get older:

(You might have to copy and paste)

I get thinking this re a girl, but I have two boys and a husband, and visually it’s very much these people all have penises, while if they see me changing or jump in the shower with me (they are little obviously!) all they see is hair really, it’s not like I’m doing a walk through display for them. So the natural assumption would be we have penises and mummy is missing one, and little girls who are seeing both could get the same impression. I wouldn’t focus on that, it seems pretty sky is blue from a child perspective,

Mostly following with interest as my DC2 is a year younger and says some similar stuff - she's also a younger sister with an older brother and in her case (bearing in mind that being a year younger is a big deal at this age!) I think there's definitely some muddling of older/younger with boy/girl. Neither child is gender conforming so far.

BUT I agree with those who say 'person without a penis' (or similar word/phrase) is maybe one to help her rework. My boy child definitely described me as simply lacking a penis (although he did also have the language to know that girls and women have a vulva), my girl child describes herself as having a vulva and often also contrasts that with having a penis. She has, appropriately, a greater regard to her own genitalia than my son ever had of mine.

When DS was little I explained to him that boys have penises and girls have vaginas. (I used vagina as it first came up when we were watching a nature documentary where a mammal was born and his main initial curiosity about the differences between males and female was focussed on having babies.) I told him that at his age the only real difference between boys and girls was that boys have penises and girls have vaginas, so he could wear what he wanted, play with what he wanted, have his hair how he wanted, watch what he wanted. And when he was 4/5/6 he often used that argument/explanation with school friends who questioned why he enjoyed My Little Pony and had long hair.

Hi OP,

Read a book called : irrevwrsible damage

And also the 'Gender a wider lens' podcast - gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/55-who-gets-to-decide-whats-normal-a-conversation-w-lisa-selin-davis.

This episode speaks to a woman who has written a book called 'tomboy'...

Irreversible damage*