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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Miss B , age 14, is challenging the College of Policing’s Guidance on Hate Crime

105 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 17/01/2022 20:20

Miss B is a 14 year old who is gardening supported by FairCop.

"Like many teenagers, Miss B. likes to discuss cultural issues with her friends and peers as part of a diverse and open school environment. However, the new APPHCG guidance from the College of Policing could see a “non-hate crime incident” recorded against her name, should a person to whom she is speaking – or a third party, such as a teacher or fellow pupil who did not even witness the incident – report her, however unfairly or mistakenly, for expressing hostile or prejudiced views. "

As the College of police are not appealing Harry Miller's win both Miss B and Sarah Phillimore can now proceed.

Sarah Phillimore's gardening is considering whether The police should not secretly record us as 'hateful'

OP posts:
Olderbadger1 · 17/01/2022 20:22

Spring is coming - it will be nice to get out in the garden again. Thanks for the prompt OP.

BlueberryCheezecake · 17/01/2022 20:28

@ChristinaXYZ

Miss B is a 14 year old who is gardening supported by FairCop.

"Like many teenagers, Miss B. likes to discuss cultural issues with her friends and peers as part of a diverse and open school environment. However, the new APPHCG guidance from the College of Policing could see a “non-hate crime incident” recorded against her name, should a person to whom she is speaking – or a third party, such as a teacher or fellow pupil who did not even witness the incident – report her, however unfairly or mistakenly, for expressing hostile or prejudiced views. "

As the College of police are not appealing Harry Miller's win both Miss B and Sarah Phillimore can now proceed.

Sarah Phillimore's gardening is considering whether The police should not secretly record us as 'hateful'

So just to make it clear, Miss B has never experienced such an incident, she is challenging this law on the basis that she might hypothetically possibly one day if precisely the right confluence of events should happen to fall together, no matter how unlikely that is.

Very shaky grounds for a challenge. Sounds like a lot of you are -once again- going to be digging in vain.

MiladyBerserko · 17/01/2022 20:35

Aww, so so appreciate your concern Blue. Don't you worry yourself at all now, we are all big girls here.

dolorsit · 17/01/2022 20:36

Do you actually think that laws/guidance can only be challenged if what you fear has come to pass?

Terfydactyl · 17/01/2022 20:37

Sounds like a lot of you are -once again- going to be digging in vain

Dont worry sweetheart, I've got plenty of money left for essentials and further gardening.

FrankBurnside · 17/01/2022 20:41

Very shaky grounds for a challenge. Sounds like a lot of you are -once again- going to be digging in vain.

Don't worry about that. I've got loads of cash. Well paid job you see.

Apollo441 · 17/01/2022 20:42

Whilst you're here blueberry, why don't you pop over to the poppers and sealions thread? Your input would be most welcome? No? Quelle Surprise! It's almost like you have no intellectual basis for your beliefs....

yourhairiswinterfire · 17/01/2022 20:43

The recording of ''non crime hate incidents'' is unlawful, so doesn't that mean that the APPHCG guidance is?

Wotagain · 17/01/2022 20:44

@FrankBurnside

Very shaky grounds for a challenge. Sounds like a lot of you are -once again- going to be digging in vain.

Don't worry about that. I've got loads of cash. Well paid job you see.

frankburnside I agree, that’s the great thing about being one of the grown ups in this conversation.
CuriousaboutSamphire · 17/01/2022 20:48

Very shaky grounds for a challenge. Sounds like a lot of you are -once again- going to be digging in vain. But Bloobs how is winning in vain ?

And you have totally misunderstood the nature of legal challenges. If you think you cannot bring one becaise you have not expereicned something. Ridiculous. She is challenging the legal basis of a law. The practicality of it. The ability of it the police to actually police it effectively. All hypothetical. And all precisely as it should be. This being a democracy where even 14 year old girls can have their voices heard.

yourhairiswinterfire · 17/01/2022 20:50

Don't worry about that. I've got loads of cash. Well paid job you see.

Wait, what? You don't have to get the Man Of The House's permission before spending first? You earn your own money to spend on whatever you like? 😱

Leafstamp · 17/01/2022 21:01

Very shaky grounds for a challenge. Sounds like a lot of you are -once again- going to be digging in vain.

What, like we did for the FPFW vs ONS case?

The one that FPFW won and had a load of costs reimbursed meaning they could use the funds for all sort of other brilliant projects to help women.

Like that you mean?

FrankBurnside · 17/01/2022 21:04

@yourhairiswinterfire

Don't worry about that. I've got loads of cash. Well paid job you see.

Wait, what? You don't have to get the Man Of The House's permission before spending first? You earn your own money to spend on whatever you like? 😱

That's right. I earn loadsa cash and I decide exactly how to spend it. I don't need any guidance at all. Grin £££££
JellySaurus · 17/01/2022 21:17

Sounds like BlueberryCheezecake is a fully paid up member of the It'll Never Happen brigade.

No digging in the Garden of Common-Sense and Safeguarding is ever in vain.

ChristinaXYZ · 17/01/2022 21:36

Thanks @BlueberryCheezecake all the responses to your comment are keeping this thread bumped up the list.

To those who wonder why this goes ahead after the Harry Miller judgement I gather there are different points of law at issue which is why it is going ahead now. Similarly Sarah Phillimore's case. "Both rely on article 8 ECHR and data protection so issues not decided by the Court of Appeal. Further incentive for the @CollegeofPolice to make meaningful amendment to their guidance."

twitter.com/WeAreFairCop/status/1483153502318870535

I am sure Miss B and Sarah Phillimore will be grateful for any help in their respective gardens.

OP posts:
Jux · 18/01/2022 00:07

I was just thinking I was in a position to do a bit of digging...

catzwhiskas · 18/01/2022 00:39

They really hate us when we cough up to defend our rights. And those comments themselves have encouraged more digging, thanks for drawing our attention BC

CheeseMmmm · 18/01/2022 06:35

I don't get it.

Unusual for 14yo to know about this legal process. To come up with theoretical situation and think I'll go to court.

Given theoretical. Wouldn't it be better for adult to do? I mean anyone could point this out and go to court. School.. why not work?.

V stressful and big thing 14. Likely time out of school, distraction heading into exam syllabus stuff.

It seems .. Not a thing most teens would do unless vv firm views from parents, and who got Harry involved and therefore money support etc?

Or rare teen like Greta T. In which case unstoppable. But still... Others must have linked into harry helped find someone to raise case etc.

I don't like the sound of this. In short. Most likely situation is down to others to pick up push along.

No need for 14yo to do it

Plus. Loads of all sorts of labels DD school. Views are ok obv. Having a group at school who chatting around school about presumably in short. Gender stuff bollocks. I mean they're right. But likelihood is. In context it's not a thing I would want DD doing with group in school when given found where others hear. Could well feel shit to other CHILDREN.

Not for me.

Not like this.

Artichokeleaves · 18/01/2022 07:23

You know what is shit for children? The female ones?

Being told they have no choice but to undress and shower alongside teenaged males, because the teenaged males want it and have feelings, and the female children's feelings about it don't matter . They are much less important than the male ones, and their bodies are not theirs to control for their own privacy, dignity and comfort, their bodies are something male children have a right to make use of.

That is shit. That is absolutely sickening. That is something that anyone who truly cares about children should be absolutely up in arms about.

We are telling female children that they cannot say no to a male, regardless of how it affects them or makes them feel, if saying no would be unkindly refusing the male an experience and access to them that the male would like.

It actively discriminates against girls who cannot share mixed sex spaces, and have no option but to subject themselves to all the shit and unpleasantness and being scolded for being prejudiced and unkind for not making special males happy over having their own trauma, disability, culture or faith catered for. The male gets included. The male is a magic person who makes the female children's inclusion rights vanish like snow off a hot brick; they're protected under the Equality Act until suddenly..... inclusion is something only for males, not females.

And female children are being told that if they argue about this, if they speak out for their equality of their own feelings and needs and access, their own inclusion, their right to not believe that a male child is something other than a male child who wishes to have a different identity, who does not believe that meeting the diverse needs of male children should remove all inclusion and privacy and dignity from female children who do not consent ?

They're being told the police could be involved.

This creates two castes of children: the ones who get to do whatever they want regardless of impact on others and be the centre of everyone else's service, and the ones who are allowed to do nothing but provide service and shut up or else.

If you're worried about what is shit for children, worry about that and not about whether a teenager is seeing all of this and hating it and wanting her voice to be heard. Against adults telling her to not pick up all that stress which might affect her exams and just submit quietly .

That is shit for children. That is truly shit.

Whatwouldscullydo · 18/01/2022 07:27

artichoke

Spot on. If its important enough for the police etc and everyone to keep tweeting and dealing with then it's important enough to challenge. Can't have it both ways.

I'll dig out my shovel

FrankBurnside · 18/01/2022 07:37

Artichokeleaves I agree. As someone who has tweens and teens who are afraid to speak out or exchange ideas in the classroom for fear that they get it wrong and are accused of hate. Citizenship has become more like censorship. How are they supposed to develop and learn when subjected to this. How do they become well adjusted and thoughtful adults when they are too scared of saying what someone else might perceive as the wrong thing. It's appalling. I will dig too. And I hope Miss B is successful.

Cuck00soup · 18/01/2022 08:01

It’s a good time of year to look after the young saplings and support more mature arbours.

Digging is very therapeutic.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 18/01/2022 08:07

@CheeseMmmm if you do a bit of reading around, the little we know of the young woman, girl, involved, she had very specific reasons for wanting to be heard. Given this update I doubt those reasons have gone away.

Happily she has parents who are supporting her, who will have made decisions based on their situation. You may not like it, may think they are wrong. But they are not you and have chosen a different, more politically active life.

Whatwouldscullydo · 18/01/2022 08:11

if you do a bit of reading around, the little we know of the young woman, girl, involved, she had very specific reasons for wanting to be heard. Given this update I doubt those reasons have gone away

I'm.always extremely confused about the double standards. How kids can apparently know exactly who amd what they are from. Toddlerhood. But teenagers simultaneously cannot know that something is wrong amd needs to be challenged legally and the adults around them.must be coaching/ encouraging them.

Which is it?

withgraceinmyheart · 18/01/2022 08:12

@Artichokeleaves

You know what is shit for children? The female ones?

Being told they have no choice but to undress and shower alongside teenaged males, because the teenaged males want it and have feelings, and the female children's feelings about it don't matter . They are much less important than the male ones, and their bodies are not theirs to control for their own privacy, dignity and comfort, their bodies are something male children have a right to make use of.

That is shit. That is absolutely sickening. That is something that anyone who truly cares about children should be absolutely up in arms about.

We are telling female children that they cannot say no to a male, regardless of how it affects them or makes them feel, if saying no would be unkindly refusing the male an experience and access to them that the male would like.

It actively discriminates against girls who cannot share mixed sex spaces, and have no option but to subject themselves to all the shit and unpleasantness and being scolded for being prejudiced and unkind for not making special males happy over having their own trauma, disability, culture or faith catered for. The male gets included. The male is a magic person who makes the female children's inclusion rights vanish like snow off a hot brick; they're protected under the Equality Act until suddenly..... inclusion is something only for males, not females.

And female children are being told that if they argue about this, if they speak out for their equality of their own feelings and needs and access, their own inclusion, their right to not believe that a male child is something other than a male child who wishes to have a different identity, who does not believe that meeting the diverse needs of male children should remove all inclusion and privacy and dignity from female children who do not consent ?

They're being told the police could be involved.

This creates two castes of children: the ones who get to do whatever they want regardless of impact on others and be the centre of everyone else's service, and the ones who are allowed to do nothing but provide service and shut up or else.

If you're worried about what is shit for children, worry about that and not about whether a teenager is seeing all of this and hating it and wanting her voice to be heard. Against adults telling her to not pick up all that stress which might affect her exams and just submit quietly .

That is shit for children. That is truly shit.

This. Fantastic post.