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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Miss B , age 14, is challenging the College of Policing’s Guidance on Hate Crime

105 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 17/01/2022 20:20

Miss B is a 14 year old who is gardening supported by FairCop.

"Like many teenagers, Miss B. likes to discuss cultural issues with her friends and peers as part of a diverse and open school environment. However, the new APPHCG guidance from the College of Policing could see a “non-hate crime incident” recorded against her name, should a person to whom she is speaking – or a third party, such as a teacher or fellow pupil who did not even witness the incident – report her, however unfairly or mistakenly, for expressing hostile or prejudiced views. "

As the College of police are not appealing Harry Miller's win both Miss B and Sarah Phillimore can now proceed.

Sarah Phillimore's gardening is considering whether The police should not secretly record us as 'hateful'

OP posts:
FrankBurnside · 18/01/2022 15:39

but you won't be laughing when they eventually come for YOU for expressing legal, valid views.

Some people never think ahead do they.

crosstalk · 18/01/2022 15:53

Greta Thunberg? She felt strongly about an issue and was supported by her parents to try to make a change.

As PP have said, if you are making life altering changes for your own life at this stage with adult help you can stand up for your rights in other ways.

Enough4me · 18/01/2022 16:39

Thanks @ChristinaXYZ I've not heard of Ovarit before, just looking now. Similar to MN as it's chat rooms?
I joined Giggle through the app, but didn't go far into it. I prefer anonymity as see the nasty pile on women who stand up for pro-science receive on Twitter.

WandaWomblesaurus73 · 18/01/2022 18:11

Children can decide to go on life changing hormones and have body parts amputated = yes be kind! Use rainbow thread!

Child decides to go to court to define scope of her right to freedom of thought and speech = NO NO NO must be silenced at all costs!

What clowns. We see the kind of things you like.

Enough4me · 18/01/2022 23:18

It's freedom of speech if it supports the narrative. It must be based on inclusion, but male-focused inclusion.

Inclusion of women's rights = CANCEL / BLOCK / TERF!

ChristinaXYZ · 19/01/2022 13:41

. @Enough4me you can be anonymous on Ovarit - you need to DM the admins on twitter to get an invite code

twitter.com/WomenAreOvarit

OP posts:
MrGHardy · 19/01/2022 15:14

"So just to make it clear, Miss B has never experienced such an incident, she is challenging this law on the basis that she might hypothetically possibly one day if precisely the right confluence of events should happen to fall together, no matter how unlikely that is.

Very shaky grounds for a challenge. Sounds like a lot of you are -once again- going to be digging in vain."

How can you experience such an incident before the law that creates these incidences comes into place?

Yea, one reason I could never side with wokesters is their awful logic.

Enough4me · 20/01/2022 00:15

Women will never be 'right', as we're not men. We cannot get it right if we are reactive or proactive.

Be reactive to an event = "why didn't you say before".

Be proactive = "well that wouldn't happen" (you women know nothing)

whowhywhenwhat · 20/01/2022 08:02

Women will never be 'right', as we're not men. We cannot get it right if we are reactive or proactive.

So, as a result, we just have to do what we believe is for the best anyway - we are not going to get any clues as to what this is from people that only criticise regardless. We need to stop listening to these people and not put too much weight to their blanket criticisms.

🤷‍♀️

Artichokeleaves · 20/01/2022 08:06

Not to mention be reactive to an event and:

It didn't happen.
If it did, it was only bantz/stop pearl clutching and being a prude, it didn't matter.
If it did, then you asked for it so what were you wearing, what time was it, why did you put yourself in that situation where a male could do that to you, what did you say that provoked him or led him on?
If you didn't, then your associations/friends/interests make you a bad person who deserved it really, it's not like it happened to someone who mattered
If you aren't a bad person, then we have to think about the awful impact of you wanting support/justice on the life and prospects of the poor male who was the aggressor, this shouldn't harm him
And anyway, it was only one incident which proves nothing.

Hence the CPS woeful record on prosecuting rape.

Women have to be pretty much the perfect victim to be listened to at all, and even then there isn't much chance. This is what is called real oppression. An oppressed group don't have the police running around in their defence like the keystone cops while waving flags celebrating them. They get laughed at for thinking they deserve police time.

stickygotstuck · 20/01/2022 12:38

Artichokeleaves is on fire! Great posts.

TofuDelights · 21/01/2022 18:35

Dug for this, and bumping

Enough4me · 21/01/2022 22:24

Bump

Spero · 22/01/2022 08:28

Thank you very much for the support for the lovely gardens of me and Miss B. Now the Court of Appeal has determined that our gardens are worthy of time and attention I am hoping that spring will see them bursting with glorious flowers etc etc etc

I agree that there is such a strange lack of logic from those who oppose such gardens. the thing Miss B and I are objecting to has indeed already happened - a chilling effect on our freedom to garden as we see fit. Not only has it already happened, the Court of Appeal has now confirmed it should never have happened.

So Miss B and I expect the police to accept this. If they will not, then they will need to explain themselves in a court. We may have to wait for the revised guidance to proceed, but if that revised guidance doesn't meet our requirements, to the garden centre we will go as is our right as citizens in a democracy.

If anyone thinks a 14 year old doesn't have a right to make their voice heard about matters which directly impact them, then as other posters have said, it is peculiar that some are urging us to allow 12 year olds to decide to sterilise themselves.

Enough4me · 24/01/2022 00:03

Best wishes @Spero, it's crazy that 12 year old can choose to sterilise themselves through irreversible damage. We got here in some crazy bubble of 'be kind' that ignores common sense.

cutymcbarronclauf · 24/01/2022 00:07

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Redshoeblueshoe · 24/01/2022 00:13

Thanks for all your work Spero.

TofuDelights · 24/01/2022 00:26

But best wishes Sarah for all you are doing. Let us know please if you need us to dig again

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 24/01/2022 00:40

For those commenting on the age of Miss B, Mary Beth Tinker was 13 years old when she brought her important free speech action: Tinker versus Des Moines.

My students loved Tinker’s story, and who doesn’t? Adorable seventh grader confronts Big Bad Authority. Adorable seventh grader wins. Cut to the credits.

But when our class discussion turned to the present, the mood changed. Students insisted that schools and universities should prohibit hate speech, which hurts innocent people. Mary Beth Tinker was fighting the good fight, against the war in Vietnam. But racists and sexists and homophobes and transphobes are different, my students said. They cause harm, offense, and even trauma in their victims. We need to shut them down.

Tinker wasn’t having it. At her middle school in Des Moines, she said, there were students who had fathers, uncles, and brothers who were fighting in Southeast Asia. Don’t you think they were offended and hurt by a snot-nosed kid whose armband suggested that their loved ones were risking their lives for a lie?

Of course they were. Speech hurts, which is why censors across time have tried to stamp it out. So if you’re going to bar speech that hurts someone, well, forget about Tinker’s armband. Forget about free speech, period.

My students took this in, and then they tried another tack. Wasn’t free speech really just a tool of the powerful? That’s why white men like it so much, of course. It lets them have their say while it harms (there’s that word again) people with less status and influence in society.

Mary Beth Tinker wasn’t having that, either. In 1965, she told the class, she was a 13-year-old girl. Free speech was the only power she had! Take that away, and she would have nothing at all.

heterodoxacademy.org/blog/why-free-speech/

Enough4me · 24/01/2022 00:50

Thanks @EmbarrassingHadrosaurus Free speech is a vital power. I think that's why the TRAs are trying to control it. Freedom to deny science, but no freedom to be pro-science.

IAmNotAGirl · 24/01/2022 12:40

Very shaky grounds for a challenge. Sounds like a lot of you are -once again- going to be digging in vain.

Awww nice of you to be concerned BlueberryCheezecake, as a gardener I don’t expect every seed to germinate but unless I sow them all nothing will grow

Enough4me · 25/01/2022 19:53

Bump, watering seeds.

Enough4me · 26/01/2022 23:25

More than half way there.

Alekto · 27/01/2022 11:46

@Enough4me

More than half way there.

Excellent!

Bump - it's much milder today; definitely gardening weather Thanks

Bosky · 27/01/2022 13:36

I love this thread!

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus - thank you for the inspiring story of Mary Beth Tinker.

I hope Ms B gets her place in the history books too, for taking legal action at the same age against authoritarian forces that would deny us freedom of speech.

Spero - "If anyone thinks a 14 year old doesn't have a right to make their voice heard about matters which directly impact them, then as other posters have said, it is peculiar that some are urging us to allow 12 year olds to decide to sterilise themselves."

Indeed!

You explained the absolute need to protect freedom of speech so clearly and succinctly at the end of the interview with Andrew Doyle and @Glinner on GB News! Flowers

"We, the British, wrote the European Convention of Human Rights.

It's such a shocking stain on that really proud achievement that we have to sit here now, in 2022, defending an absolute, basic and fundamental right.

Because if you don't have freedom of speech you can't protect any of your other rights because you can't talk about them."

ChristinaXYZ - thank you for the tip about the "Activism" area on Ovarit!

Artichokeleaves - I know I will want to read your posts again and I do hate it when brilliant posts or whole threats get zapped, often after deliberate sabotage, so I have archived the thread so far. By luck rather than judgement, the first 100 posts:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220127120115/www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4456367-Miss-B-age-14-is-challenging-the-College-of-Policing-s-Guidance-on-Hate-Crime" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220127120115/www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4456367-Miss-B-age-14-is-challenging-the-College-of-Policing-s-Guidance-on-Hate-Crime

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220127131944/www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4456367-Miss-B-age-14-is-challenging-the-College-of-Policing-s-Guidance-on-Hate-Crime?pg=2" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220127131944/www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4456367-Miss-B-age-14-is-challenging-the-College-of-Policing-s-Guidance-on-Hate-Crime?pg=2

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220127131944/www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4456367-Miss-B-age-14-is-challenging-the-College-of-Policing-s-Guidance-on-Hate-Crime?pg=3" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220127131944/www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4456367-Miss-B-age-14-is-challenging-the-College-of-Policing-s-Guidance-on-Hate-Crime?pg=3

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220127131944/www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4456367-Miss-B-age-14-is-challenging-the-College-of-Policing-s-Guidance-on-Hate-Crime?pg=4" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220127131944/www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4456367-Miss-B-age-14-is-challenging-the-College-of-Policing-s-Guidance-on-Hate-Crime?pg=4

And whoever you are, "THANK YOU Ms B!" Flowers

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