Interview with non-binary male on PM today

[Whatiswrongwithmyknee]

Person called Phil interviewed today on PM. Phil said that there's an expectation of what his male body should present and this is one thing which made Phil think they is transgender. They disliked expectations on him as 'the man of the house'. They believe that by calling their self non binary, they are resisting the patriarchy. They believe that 'most people' position themselves on one end of the spectrum.

I think most women do not present in the way that a female body 'should' and that is why we have strong feminist movements which object to expectations on us to e.g. be kind, to put our needs aside for others, to be pretty above all else etc. etc. Most of us also resist the patriarchy. I don't know anyone who positions themselves on one end of the spectrum.

This makes me think that we should assume that everyone is 'non-binary' unless they tell us that they accept the patriarchy and are trying to live by the standards patriarchy sets. If we accepted that then pretty much the whole population are non-binary and it's a almost completely irrelevant thing to say. Phil talked about expectations landing on his shoulders when his father died. I think Phil sounded pretty traumatised (as might be expected) but I think it is pretty arrogant nonetheless to assume that most people position themselves on one end of the spectrum. Is there any research which actually suggests this to be true? I think he's making massive assumptions and they are not helpful assumptions particularly to women.

I'd say I'm non-binary except I don't believe we really do have binary conceptualisations of expectations on men and women as they are very time and culture specific.

What do others think?

You may get in trouble for various misgendering instances there OP.

Phil sounds self obsessed and not as interesting as Phil thinks.

I believe I am a woman today, wearing no makeup, men's joggers, a unisex hoodie and trainers.
I believe I was also a woman the other day when I wore a dress, heels and makeup.
I believe I am a woman when I am at a football match and also I believe I am a woman when I am knitting.
I believe that sex is binary and fixed and how I dress and what activities I enjoy doesn't alter the fact that I am a woman.

Sorry no misgendering meant. Phil described theirself as male and I've tried not to put he anywhere but looking at my post I might have tripped up on the 'his'. I'm happy to edit it if I can. I think Phil misgenders when he assumes that by calling myself a woman I am identifying with one end of the binary 'spectrum' (which can't be a spectrum unless we entrench one specific culture's ideas of man and woman which seems pretty racist to me).

@Runningupthecurtains

I believe I am a woman today, wearing no makeup, men's joggers, a unisex hoodie and trainers. I believe I was also a woman the other day when I wore a dress, heels and makeup. I believe I am a woman when I am at a football match and also I believe I am a woman when I am knitting. I believe that sex is binary and fixed and how I dress and what activities I enjoy doesn't alter the fact that I am a woman.

It sounds like you also don't position yourself at one end of the spectrum but also consider that irrelevant when you say you are a woman?

I wonder who does position themselves at just one end of the spectrum. It would be interesting to hear from them.

Och Phil just needs a personality and wrangling a toddler or two.

No,time to have theses in-depth gazing into himself

What is PM by the way ?

What @Whatiswrongwithmyknee
There isn’t a spectrum.
There is male and female. That why babies are born. That’s why we have male people and female people
A tiny tiny percentage of intersex individuals.
That’s it. It’s quite simple and not complication.
Phil sounds like he has haa a difficult time if it. Maybe he could benefit from some therapy about the sad death of his Dad and the subsequent burdens he shouldered.
However in life sometimes we have to do things that are nor morally wrong that we may not wish to do/are thrust upon us. Eg my DH had to deal with 2x post natal depression from me after our school were both. He could have left me - it was very hard. But he made a decision to stay.
Life is sometimes hard and unpleasant- that’s a fact. I think people should be aware of that.

Unless you are a barbie or an action man, we are all non-binary. I wear mainly men's clothes, drink whisky, like rugby, but my biology is female, therefore I am a woman.
I have no clue what PM is.

Anyone who has to label themselves non-binary is, to me, someone who is in thrall to old-fashioned ideas and to gender stereotypes. They’ll say that they’re not because ‘Look at me - I’m NB!’ But saying you’re non-binary is measuring yourself against regressive stereotypes that should have disappeared long ago.

If I bake a cake, I don’t do so because it’s a ‘woman thing’. I do so because I want to. I might equally want to paint the lounge, read a Maths book, change the tyre on my car. To me, these are just ‘things’ not ‘man things’ and ‘woman things’. I grew up being told that women could be and do anything. I feel sorry for Phil and those like Phil.

Free yourself, Phil. Who gives a sh*t about gender stereotypes? FGS, move into the 21st century! All of you! You are so wrong about everyone else. We’re free, your a slave to stereotypes because they dictate your every move and your idea of yourself.

PM - evening news programme on R4

There are two sexes, and every individual has a unique personality. Knowing my sex doesn't tell you a single thing about my personality. There's no "spectrum" of gender identity other than the social/cultural etc expectations or stereotypes for each sex and the degree or not that you conform to those expectations/stereotypes.

Why was they interviewing this bloke who was whining about life that’s a bit hard

Was he only interesting cos he said he was non binary. Or was there something else

@Calist

PM - evening news programme on R4

Yes. Sorry I should have said.

It's so weird this way of thinking, that resisting or breaking free of an extreme stereotyped gender role for your sex, makes you a special unicorn who isn't a man or a woman. To make that make any sense, they have to pretend or somehow believe that everyone else adheres to the stereotypes, when they don't, and loads of people were deviating from them centuries before gender ideology was born. Especially gay people!

So yes we are almost all of us non-binary - in fact I would say all. Because what about the things we all do that aren't gendered? Reading, liking chips, watching TV, gardening. We all do loads of things that aren't part of a gender stereotype or stereotypically assigned to either end of a gender spectrum. So even if you're a total girly girl or he-man, you're still gender non-binary.

@littlbrowndog

They contacted the show directly and wanted to 'tell their story' according to ED.

Phil is confusing the feminine/masculine 'spectrum' with the female/male binary.

We are all either female or male. There is no 'both', no 'neither', no 'somewhere-in-between'. This is objective, independent of our feelings or choices.

Our behaviour, the stereos we embrace or reject, and maybe even the way we may think about ourselves, ask these could possibly be placed somewhere (anywhere, many wheres) on the spectrum between feminine and masculine. But these are subjective, nebulous, under changeable interpretations. And mostly irrelevant.

But to Phil - highly relevant. Phil has to believe that everybody feels whatever it is Phil says they believe. Otherwise Phil's own beliefs become obviously subjective, nebulous, under changeable interpretations. And mostly irrelevant.

How come we can never find someone who actually positions themselves at one end of the spectrum? I just asked my OH. He doesn't either.

I mean how can Phil not notice that he's surrounded by women wearing trousers, having short hair, doing surgery/driving lorries/running countries and many more things are not at the extreme feminine stereotype, and men having long hair, arranging flowers, wearing camp sparkly jackets, being midwives, wearing eyeliner and so on and so on, and yet all these people still understand that they are still men and women based on their sex?

What about people like running (and me) who pick and choose from all of it? How does that work then? Does Phil think they are transgender like him but in denial, because they don't fit his "end of spectrum" definition? Or does he accept that you can be clearly not at the "right" end of the spectrum and not be transgender?

Also how can these people not see that their arguments just uphold patriarchal stereotypes? "I don't fit the masculine role laid down for men so... errrrrm... I'm not a man" I mean d'oh.

NB can only be a thing if the rest of us are binary. I find it absurd and offensive.

It sounds like we are agreeing that people's, or at least Phil's, idea that they is non binary is built on the false belief that non non binary people position themselves at one end of the spectrum.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

How come we can never find someone who actually positions themselves at one end of the spectrum? I just asked my OH. He doesn't either.

It’s true we don’t hear from these people who sit at the ends of this spectrum- it’s almost as if it’s just a belief that that is how everyone else feels that has been re-enforces by those who have an interest in this being correct.

I don’t doubt there are men and women who are very much stereotypes out there, but even so there’s too much of a cross over in how people feel, personality traits, interests etc.

It would be interesting to hear from someone who feels they have no characteristics in common with the opposite sex but I doubt we will because as everyone else is saying- non binary is pretty much the default for the human personality.

Perhaps at some point someone will come out as binary. Then they can tell us all what that means.

I think most NBs are like goths (in that it’s just a fashion but they take it very seriously!).

I do often wonder how they manage to be completely blind to the fact that the rest of the world is just like them.

That's a bit harsh on goths! They know it's a fashion/lifestyle choice and nothing else. They're not claiming special status, despite actually getting a fair bit of harassment when out and about. Or worse, if you remember Sophie Lancaster and Robert Maltby.

Phil wants to pretend phil is special and 'resisting the patriarchy' whilst still having all Phil's male privilege and entitlement and changing absolutely nothing about themself.

Phil doesn't want to conform to sex role norms. Great. Most of us don't. Then phil should challenge social expectations of sex roles instead of pretending that if you say you are 'non binary' those bullshit stereotypes will magically disappear.