Interview with non-binary male on PM today

[Whatiswrongwithmyknee]

Person called Phil interviewed today on PM. Phil said that there's an expectation of what his male body should present and this is one thing which made Phil think they is transgender. They disliked expectations on him as 'the man of the house'. They believe that by calling their self non binary, they are resisting the patriarchy. They believe that 'most people' position themselves on one end of the spectrum.

I think most women do not present in the way that a female body 'should' and that is why we have strong feminist movements which object to expectations on us to e.g. be kind, to put our needs aside for others, to be pretty above all else etc. etc. Most of us also resist the patriarchy. I don't know anyone who positions themselves on one end of the spectrum.

This makes me think that we should assume that everyone is 'non-binary' unless they tell us that they accept the patriarchy and are trying to live by the standards patriarchy sets. If we accepted that then pretty much the whole population are non-binary and it's a almost completely irrelevant thing to say. Phil talked about expectations landing on his shoulders when his father died. I think Phil sounded pretty traumatised (as might be expected) but I think it is pretty arrogant nonetheless to assume that most people position themselves on one end of the spectrum. Is there any research which actually suggests this to be true? I think he's making massive assumptions and they are not helpful assumptions particularly to women.

I'd say I'm non-binary except I don't believe we really do have binary conceptualisations of expectations on men and women as they are very time and culture specific.

What do others think?

People need to stop paying attention to rigid stereotypes they perceive in their own mind, or get off t'internet and impose on their own sex. Sex is a fundamental, basic aspect of a person - but then a person’s character is so much more complex and varied. We demonstrate different aspects of ourselves in different situations and with different people. Why limit yourself in this way? Gender ideology is really not a necessary part of human existence, as far as I can see. The only limits are socially or often self-imposed.

Didn't hear the interview, but from the description given it sounds like Phil doesn't like the gender expectations that are mostly associated with males.

It doesn't sound like Phil is suggesting they are a woman.

What a shame Phil appears to think this makes them trans/non-binary/interesting.

@littlbrowndog

What is PM by the way ?

Phil's Masculinity

I think Phil needs some proper feminism in his life

It's so all-encompassing, they've made an entire show about it.

@Skeumorph

It's so all-encompassing, they've made an entire show about it.

Snigger

I did hear it. Apparently they did have some transwomen earlier. All very nice. Phil is a lawyer? Phil asked to be referred as they. Very little pushing on the interviewer part:
“so you don’t mind being male but would like your gender to be recognised on your passport and birth certificate?”
Phil “ Yeah it would be nice.”
How nice and pretty all is.

How little forward thinking goes into this.

It seems to me that the two groups most reliant on reinforcing gender stereotypes are trans people and non-binary people.

The rest of us are just getting on with our lives, having a biological sex and a set of likes and dislikes that form part of our personality. I don't actively try to be feminine or not-feminine or masculine or not-masculine. I just do what I do across the full range of work, hobbies, skills and interests.

@Keke94LND

Almost everyone on the planet is non binary and if you get upset being referred to as he or she you need to get a grip (and this is coming from a millennial by the way before anyone try's to accuse me of being a middle aged woman who's opinion no one apparently cares about)

You are aware that some millennials are now middle aged right?

“so you don’t mind being male but would like your gender to be recognised on your passport and birth certificate?”
Phil “ Yeah it would be nice.”

So Phil would like his religion to be recognised on his birth cert and passport, and for everyone to be obliged to use the terminology of his religion, regardless whether or not others follow his religion.

This would be nice, would it?

We know exactly what happens when personal beliefs are recorded on passports and official documentation, and what happens when language and behaviour are controlled by others' beliefs.

#ItNeverHappens

Non binary is gender critical for wet lettuces.

I haven't heard this on the radio but his complaints have made me think of the expectations made of women and girls when a parent dies. I'm sorry Phil had a tough time but 99% of people who carry out caring roles after a parent dies are women and girls.

@Sort0f

I do think a lot of people use non-binary as a way of rejecting stereotypes gender roles, both for themselves and for others.

It’s always puzzled me why the obvious overlap between this and so much of so many strands of feminism isn’t embraced.

It’s often a slightly different way of saying the same thing- that society is unfairly and unrealistically structured. Just expressed ina different vernacular.

But the focus the differences in vernacular do a very good job of divide and rule. And there’s only one beneficiary of that.

You could argue that the societal expectations of gender benefit the people who want to look cool/special by rejecting them. This is an incredibly individualistic movement, and it’s proponents tend to ignore completely the structural dimensions of oppression.

rejecting them for themselves*.

I heard this. It was the same as the other first person accounts from non-binary people. They don't want to box themselves into either masculine or feminine stereotypes so they call themselves non-binary. Thing is, by doing that they are strengthening those boxes for the rest of us by assuming we are all in them. Which is sexist.

Be a man however you want. Be a woman however you want. Just don't do it in a way that makes assumptions about how I am - and certainly don't ask me to use language for you, the usage of which implies that I am a feminine stereotype.

@Sort0f

I do think a lot of people use non-binary as a way of rejecting stereotypes gender roles, both for themselves and for others.

It’s always puzzled me why the obvious overlap between this and so much of so many strands of feminism isn’t embraced.

It’s often a slightly different way of saying the same thing- that society is unfairly and unrealistically structured. Just expressed ina different vernacular.

But the focus the differences in vernacular do a very good job of divide and rule. And there’s only one beneficiary of that.

Because feminism is collective action to liberate women from the restrictions and oppression of patriarchy.

Non-binary is not just a difference in vernacular. Its an entirely different approach which is entirely individualistic. The individual merely declares that they do not fit into masculine or feminine stereotypes. This does not reject stereotypes for anyone else, but instead rather reinforces them by implying that people who do not identify as non-binary are masculine or feminine stereotypes. Which I believe Phil stated. Its a deeply regressive idea.
Furthermore, by 'opting out' individually you do nothing to fight the structures of society which disadvantage women (and sometimes men), as you don't need to. Society is binary, it's just you that are not.

So nothing changes, except perhaps your pronouns.

I'm just thinking about the NB person I know in that context @JeshusHChr. Back when he presented as a man (ie did not have rainbow hair or wear tie-dyed harem pants - I wish this was outing but it's more like a uniform I think) he used to inform me that makeup was bad because it was women lying about their appearance.

This ancient men's rights trope was according to him tremendously intellectual because Adam Smith said it. I think there's an old theory that in the 18th century both men and women used make up to disguise the signs of syphilis so men were particularly harsh about this, as they apparently might be tricked into buying the consent of a diseased prostitute rather than a healthy one. And of course this was the Adam Smith who wore a big hairy wig.

There is no spectrum. It is a biological fact that everyone is either male or female. Everything else is just stereotypes, personality and likes and dislikes, none of which make you a particular sex, and none of which should be used to judge or prove what sex you are, because none of them apply to all people of that sex. Basing rights, laws and official or medical documentation on what a person likes to wear, be called, or do in their spare time is fucking ridiculous.

I did get into the only row I had with DS about this recently. I guess we had both had a hard day.

He was telling me about the breakdown of uni subjects applied for in his year - and started saying boys x , girls X and non binary… (so he mentioned the ‘gender’ as if it was a relevant factor as in who was going to do maths, medicine, physics, English…).

Now you shouldn’t blarb genderwoo when speaking to an exhausted woman with a period like a monsoon, and stomach cramps like she was gestating a small elephant. It becomes a little irritating.

I asked what the sex breakdown was - only by sex and not personal feelings - since he was the one who felt it was relevant to breakdown the subjects by sex in the first place. He tried the ‘it’s relevant!’ (as a complete argument) but…

I later explained that it wouldn’t matter if I identified as man, woman, both, neither, or a flipping teapot, you can’t escape biology and physical pain/discomfort of periods. It doesn’t work like that. And when we are all skeletons in the ground, future archaeologists won’t be able to tell who was NB.

I can’t believe a kid planning on studying science and maths is trying to argue genderwoo with an old art school gal…

makeup was bad because it was women lying about their appearance.

And all the men who wear make-up because they like it, as part of their rock or goth look, or maybe more commonly a bit of spot concealer... oh and all the men around the world in non-British cultures who wear it for various reasons? And the men of ancient Egypt, or reformation England who wore it as normal fashion? Or the men who wore it for battle?

This is what annoys me so much - these dumb, evidence-free blanket statements that for example make-up is a woman thing, and so forms part of the feminine stereotype that no one apart from special gender unicorns ever deviates from. To say and believe this they have to live in a bubble, totally discounting history, various cultures etc as well as all the obvious plain old normal GNC people.

It's like that daft non-binary poet a couple of years ago who moaned on about not being able to get a haircut because all hairdressers are coded extreme masculine or feminine. Conveniently ignoring that they're not, they're mostly unisex and no one has ever had a problem finding a hairdresser to do whatever they want.

Well... I do think getting a hairdresser to do what you want is really hard but that's partly because as a woman I am expected to have views on my hair and on the respective merits of layering, taking some of the weight out, softening, texturing, diffusing, product and all the rest of it. And indeed I do, and I'm aware that when I speak this language I am doing something that is profoundly gendered in our culture. Hair has no gender, it is truly nonbinary but is used to signal gender more than any other aspect of our presentation. Hence my NB acquaintance signalling their gender expansiveness with a rainbow dye job.

Gender is the most genius aspect of capitalism ever created.

I love that he's called a non-binary MALE in the thread title. That's what we have, non-binary males and non-binary females, so male and female really. There was a thread a little while ago about the first non-binary winner of the non-binary section of (I think) the Boston Marathon. Guess whether it was a non-binary (male body) or a non-binary (female body). Yep, it was a bloke who wasn't good enough to compete against the men....
I guess he'll have more competition next year when the other mediocre men cotton on.....

I suppose I've seen it differently Permanent, as I've always had short hair, and as a teen I could always get a short crop at the barber's, who didn't give a toss that I was female. I agree knowing all the lingo and options involved in "feminine" hair is harder, but it's actually easier if you don't want that.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

Phil doesn't want to challenge the binary. Phil admits that the binary should remain otherwise how is Phil special?

This is the entire issue with gender ideology. They claim to be non conforming and breaking gender norms by simultaneously enforcing sexist stereotypes and sex roles in order to make their outward presentation or behaviour declared as something meaningful in relation to their sex.

This.

First Phil has to imagine boxes separating stereotypes of Phil's choice into the boxes.

Then Phil imagines everyone else into one or the other box - probably actually based on sex in reality if you unpick it. I doubt Phil would follow his own stereotypes and put a short haired woman in trousers who is a barrister into the male/masculine box. In this system gender usually does actually mean sex when you dig down; gender is the reason and justification to be in a different sex box to their physical reality and with the opposite sex.

Then Phil can view himself as in neither box and something different.

I don't have a lot of time for a self view that involves sticking everyone else into narrow boxes in order to permit oneself the ability to identify out of them. The whole point we've been teaching girls for decades, centuries, is that you can be a girl and yet do and be anything you choose. You don't have to get into anyone else's boxes and co operate with their limited thinking for you.

@SunnyDelite

I love that he's called a non-binary MALE in the thread title. That's what we have, non-binary males and non-binary females, so male and female really. There was a thread a little while ago about the first non-binary winner of the non-binary section of (I think) the Boston Marathon. Guess whether it was a non-binary (male body) or a non-binary (female body). Yep, it was a bloke who wasn't good enough to compete against the men.... I guess he'll have more competition next year when the other mediocre men cotton on.....

Thankfully he said he was male so I can't be accused of misgendering or otherwise being unkind (not womanly enough) in this context. How ridiculous that there is a non-binary category. We divide sport by ability differences which can't be prevented. There is no relationship between whether you are a follower of gender ideology and your performance in a marathon.