Interview with non-binary male on PM today

[Whatiswrongwithmyknee]

Person called Phil interviewed today on PM. Phil said that there's an expectation of what his male body should present and this is one thing which made Phil think they is transgender. They disliked expectations on him as 'the man of the house'. They believe that by calling their self non binary, they are resisting the patriarchy. They believe that 'most people' position themselves on one end of the spectrum.

I think most women do not present in the way that a female body 'should' and that is why we have strong feminist movements which object to expectations on us to e.g. be kind, to put our needs aside for others, to be pretty above all else etc. etc. Most of us also resist the patriarchy. I don't know anyone who positions themselves on one end of the spectrum.

This makes me think that we should assume that everyone is 'non-binary' unless they tell us that they accept the patriarchy and are trying to live by the standards patriarchy sets. If we accepted that then pretty much the whole population are non-binary and it's a almost completely irrelevant thing to say. Phil talked about expectations landing on his shoulders when his father died. I think Phil sounded pretty traumatised (as might be expected) but I think it is pretty arrogant nonetheless to assume that most people position themselves on one end of the spectrum. Is there any research which actually suggests this to be true? I think he's making massive assumptions and they are not helpful assumptions particularly to women.

I'd say I'm non-binary except I don't believe we really do have binary conceptualisations of expectations on men and women as they are very time and culture specific.

What do others think?

I do think a lot of people use non-binary as a way of rejecting stereotypes gender roles, both for themselves and for others.

It’s always puzzled me why the obvious overlap between this and so much of so many strands of feminism isn’t embraced.

It’s often a slightly different way of saying the same thing- that society is unfairly and unrealistically structured. Just expressed ina different vernacular.

But the focus the differences in vernacular do a very good job of divide and rule. And there’s only one beneficiary of that.

The more of these people that appear in the media the better. I can just imagine the PM audience thinking why on Earth is anyone wasting time on this ridiculous nonentity, especially right now.

There was a young skiier/snowboarder (forget which- might be a spectrum) on Ski Sunday the other week who 'came out as non-binary' and hoped to inspire other 'non-binary' people into the sport
Not sure I can watch it again - seems they have a 'gender declaring section' to the program now.

I agree with your point about misgendering OP. Any time a non binary person or person who believes in gender ideology refers to me as a woman, because they mean "woman gender ID", they are misgendering me (I don't have a gender ID). Conversely, when I use words like "his" I'm referring to sex, so I can't actually misgender.

In your example, Phil hasn't even considered what life is like for women. This is fairly typical of male humans. I'm sure Phil's gender ID is really important to Phil, but I'm far more interested in a person's actions, values and, if I have to share space with them, sex.

It's a shame that the above isn't more widely understood. We're told misgendering causes suicide amongst a vulnerable population. Wouldn't it be better for that population to understand that the vast majority of people aren't actually misgendering them? They just don't follow the same belief system?

I agree with your point about misgendering OP. Any time a non binary person or person who believes in gender ideology refers to me as a woman, because they mean "woman gender ID", they are misgendering me (I don't have a gender ID). Conversely, when I use words like "his" I'm referring to sex, so I can't actually misgender.

yes that's exactly what I mean but much better put! If someone who is trans or non-binary calls me a woman I feel like an identity is being forced on me. If gender does refer to identity and nothing else, I want to know the options so I can choose which box I have to force myself into. It certainly isn't 'woman' based on what Phil, or anyone else, has said about that box within the gender ideology.

It isn't rejecting stereotypes though. Phil was so tedious and, at 50 years old, I would hope Phil was more mature
Phil doesn't want to challenge the binary. Phil admits that the binary should remain otherwise how is Phil special?
If Phil just accepted Phil is a man Phil could challenge stereotypes by engaging in activities typically considered feminine

I know a nonbinary person who was until about 5 minutes ago earlier this winter a public school educated man with an Oxbridge degree, a senior job, a wife and 2 kids. But that's of course only one way of describing them. They have had a couple if really major challenges to overcome, which they have. I get that they are more interesting and less privileged than a one line CV would ever tell you. And I get that our/my tendency to put people in boxes is negative for them. I find the nonbinary crap uninteresting but maybe it's cheaper than therapy.

Didn't Phil say that Phil had previously identified as a gay man though?

I thought Phil said they was uncomfortable with being labelled a man so chose non binary. This was described as Phil felt they didn't fit the expectations of the masculine stereotype and needed to express the difference without 'man' as a descriptor.

It appears to me that Phil is having a small rebellion against masculine stereotypes prevalent in his country of origin. (USA?)

Apologies for mangled language thought Phil had also said preferred pronouns are they/ them.

I just do what I do. Must be great to have so much time on your hands time to worry about such earth shattering topics… it definitely is the epitome of first works problems isn’t it? My day is filled with work, chasing after/worrying about/being nagged by various family members and trying to grab some sleep.

Can you imagine many folks in Yemen at this very moment pondering ‘so, I wonder how my goddess energy is faring today? Or am I more lion energy…?’

The glaring issue is that everyone reads, hears, sees and understands this person as a male.

No amount of compelled pronouns will change that.
The "expectations put on him as a male" won't change, nor will their biological advantages (over females) and reproductive role. Society certainly isn't going to treat them any differently to any other bloke.

In fact, nothing changes at all.

Oh FFS.
"Expectations put on them as a male" of course 🙄
Genuine mistake.

Whatever happened to ‘new men’ and ‘metrosexuals’? Weren’t these supposed to be men who didn’t act ‘manly’?

KittenKong excellent question. They seem to have gone the way of goths and emos.

Just another of the endless mental convolutions people have to twist their brains around, OP, if they want to believe in gender identity ideology!

@Linguini

The glaring issue is that everyone reads, hears, sees and understands this person as a male.

No amount of compelled pronouns will change that.
The "expectations put on him as a male" won't change, nor will their biological advantages (over females) and reproductive role. Society certainly isn't going to treat them any differently to any other bloke.

In fact, nothing changes at all.

Exactly. Say I am told I have to share a taxi for work purposes with an unknown person called Lesley or Bracken or something who is NB, what am I going to be thinking?

Probably "Oh shit! I'm going to have to be really REALLY careful about what I say as they'll probably try and get me fired if I say the wrong thing. And I really, really hope they're female as I sometimes get a trauma response from being in an enclosed space with an unknown male".

If all women declared themselves non-binary, where would that leave the trans women who need to define themselves by sexist stereotypes? Would then have trans historic people, who defined themselves as belonging in the 1950s?

It also really annoys me when people “come out” as non-binary. “Coming out” for gay people was/is about deciding to be open about something they have felt obliged to conceal - having been “in the closet”. How can you come out as something that basically everyone is, that was only dreamed up as a special status recently?

It’s like “coming out” as a person who has to eat food, or gets a headache sometimes.

People just want to be special. Have you not seen the gender reveal videos for adults? It’s quite odd.

The hardest closet to come out of is one you are not in

This whole business is so absurd. Announcing that you're non-binary changes nothing. You don't have to do anything: change the way you dress, change your name, change the way you look. You've just invented a fact about yourself and expect other people to take it seriously, to the extent that behind your back they have to refer to you as "they". You might as well say you're a duck and ask people to refer to you as "His royal quackster."

We should just laugh at these people, not interview them on serious current affairs programmes.

Yeah corgi. That exactly.

We all know that 'non-binary' is nothing but stereotyping and then saying the stereotypes don't apply, as well as attention seeking.

Almost everyone on the planet is non binary and if you get upset being referred to as he or she you need to get a grip (and this is coming from a millennial by the way before anyone try's to accuse me of being a middle aged woman who's opinion no one apparently cares about)

If you applied gender woo woo bollocks to everyone, we'd all be non binary. Announcing you are non binary, to me, it's nothing more than "I want attention"

Phil doesn't want to challenge the binary. Phil admits that the binary should remain otherwise how is Phil special?

This is the entire issue with gender ideology. They claim to be non conforming and breaking gender norms by simultaneously enforcing sexist stereotypes and sex roles in order to make their outward presentation or behaviour declared as something meaningful in relation to their sex.