House of Lords debate #KeepPrisonsSingleSex

[Alekto]

There's to be a debate in the HoL tomorrow pertaining to non-females being able to 'identify' in to women's prisons.

https://twitter.com/womensrightsnet/status/1480252452133822465?s=21

#KeepPrisonsSingleSex is trending at 3 in the UK on twitter but I can't see a thread here, so thought I'd start one. I don't know how the HoL works. Can anyone shed any light about what is likely to happen?

Text of tweet:

"Women's Rights Network - WRN
@WomensRightsNet
·
3h

On 10/1 HOL debates #Amendment97ZA seeking to stop male prisoners being housed in women's prisons. We ask the Lords to consider the safety & dignity of women uppermost in the debate & support the amendment #KeepPrisonsSingleSex #PoliceCrimeBill #Amendment214
@NoXYinXXprisons"

Claire Fox speaks strongly in favour of the amendment as one would expect.

She calls for the government to commission independent research.

Women's prisons are not there to protect vulnerable males. They're not there to make up for the inability of the MoJ to keep transwomen prisoners safe.

Interesting to see that those speaking in favour of the amendment all refer to the fact that it has created significant public interest and the public fall very much on the side of preserving women's single sex spaces for prisons.

Now another man has risen to speak against the amendment.
Playing the suicide card.
What a plonker.
'the balancing of rights'
Funny bloody scale he is using

Now Lord Cashman:

Most Oppressed Ever™. Transition is very lengthy and is undertaken following a vast amount of soul searching. Trans people have told him they will commit suicide rather than go to prison.

Lord Cashman: The worst thing about the amandment is that it makes transwomen (and apparently transmen) look bad.

@TInkyWlnky

There needs to be a third space for these people. Making the womens estate unsafe by adding born males to it is not the answer.

This.

The needs of vulnerable males who identify as TW or anything else can be met. Their safety, privacy, dignity, identity validation can all be met in this way.

To insist they go into female provision is to insist on an additional male right of access to female humans as a resource. And that male right of access to them to be held above the female humans' right to consent, physical safety, privacy, dignity. And to be afforded that right regardless of their history of being a predator with a trail of female bodies behind them left in various states of damage through their interesting life choices.

Fgs service dogs have far more protection than this!

Brilliant lady now.
Policy has been captured
by a Cult (she said this, I'm just quoting)

Claire Fox speaks strongly in favour of the amendment as one would expect.

She calls for the government to commission independent research

That is a golden, even platinum response.

You cannot counter zealotry and belief systems, unless you are going to provide evidence to the contrary.

Everyone can take a step back, and just wait for the research. Job done.

This embeds in law a privilege held by being biologically male.

While at the same time pretending that the reason for putting males into this position over females is that they can change sex.

If anyone truly thought these males were females no one would give the slightest toss for what they wanted or needed. That this is an out and out pack of lies is stark .

Baroness Meyer: the government has been influenced by pressure groups whose basic ignorance of science has all the hallmarks of a cult.

Having watched the previous HoL debate I'd say they're getting more to grips with the fundamental issue of sex vs gender.

Lord Faulks: April Ashley shows why we have to treat transwomen as actually women.

Lord Farmer: we need to look at the vulnerability of the women in prisons.

Lord Farmer speaks from experience and has done his homework. His speech starts from here:

parliamentlive.tv/event/index/055ab7fe-d712-487c-9f97-a474fc02dcff?in=20:00:10

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (Green Party) is going well off-piste compared to the party line she's supposed to follow:

"Do trans men go to men's prisons? My understanding is not because they wouldn't be safe."

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb's speech is worth listening to:

parliamentlive.tv/event/index/055ab7fe-d712-487c-9f97-a474fc02dcff?in=20:14:45

Baroness Barker (Liberal Democrat): there are historical cases where the bad outcomes people have talked about have happened but things are better now so we can ignore the embarrassing cases that don't suit our arguments.

I can’t actually believe that this is even being debated. No right thinking individual would consider putting natal men in prison with natal women. They are trapped - no where to escape. The prison service has a duty of care - how many women must burn on the pyre before sense is seen. If trans women are vulnerable and at risk from men - then surely the men’s estate needs looking at and 3rd space provision provided. Fucking unbelievable.

@Whatthechicken

I can’t actually believe that this is even being debated. No right thinking individual would consider putting natal men in prison with natal women. They are trapped - no where to escape. The prison service has a duty of care - how many women must burn on the pyre before sense is seen. If trans women are vulnerable and at risk from men - then surely the men’s estate needs looking at and 3rd space provision provided. Fucking unbelievable.

Yes. And there is such a thing as 'suicide watch' in prisons.

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Labour): prison officers and prison governers have assured me that these days this issue can be managed (he talked about them being relaxed over the issue) and so everything is fine.

Brian's last name strikes me as apt.

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Conservative) (speaking on behalf of the government): since 2019 there have been no assaults by transwomen on women prisoners. Although if there were to be it wouldn't be that much of a deal. (I'm paraphrasing this last sentence so check yourself on his actual words.)

@nauticant

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (Green Party) is going well off-piste compared to the party line she's supposed to follow:

"Do trans men go to men's prisons? My understanding is not because they wouldn't be safe."

Lord Blencathra (Conservative) has now withdrawn his amendment. He did so in an interesting speech in which he made clear that his intention is to get this issue debated and to increase awareness:

parliamentlive.tv/event/index/055ab7fe-d712-487c-9f97-a474fc02dcff?in=20:37:20

So the MoJ have been getting it right since 2019. All those horror stories trotted out by GC people are just historic examples.

@Redlake

So the MoJ have been getting it right since 2019. All those horror stories trotted out by GC people are just historic examples.

It’s not just about assaults. No assaults is not the same as ensuring privacy and dignity are protected. Living with fear and anxiety may not be regarded as an assault but it is a failure of safeguarding.

Depends if it's true. Do you always listen to a Conservative Minister and assume everything they tell you must be true?

Thanks for the links. There were some excellent speeches.

I can’t believe Cashman played the suicide card. The guilt tripping never bloody changes. It’s clearly never crossed his mind that there are women going into prison terrified of encountering these transwomen, many of the latter with convictions for violent and sexual offences against women and girls. He just doesn’t see women at all. Same goes for all the other speakers opining about the most vulnerable (most important) trans and not giving a stuff about women. Still, it started to draw a line around this. It’s clear it’s not about safety. Third spaces would address that concern.

@Redlake

So the MoJ have been getting it right since 2019. All those horror stories trotted out by GC people are just historic examples.

No reported assaults. That’s not the same thing as no assaults. Plus the safeguarding and welfare points Chaz has already made.

Yes, Lord Wolfson spoke as though the situation was being actively and carefully monitored while I suspect that any woman prisoner wanting to report an assault would be aware that she might not get a wholly sympathetic hearing: insidetime.org/women-face-punishment-for-using-wrong-pronouns/