House of Lords debate #KeepPrisonsSingleSex

[Alekto]

There's to be a debate in the HoL tomorrow pertaining to non-females being able to 'identify' in to women's prisons.

https://twitter.com/womensrightsnet/status/1480252452133822465?s=21

#KeepPrisonsSingleSex is trending at 3 in the UK on twitter but I can't see a thread here, so thought I'd start one. I don't know how the HoL works. Can anyone shed any light about what is likely to happen?

Text of tweet:

"Women's Rights Network - WRN
@WomensRightsNet
·
3h

On 10/1 HOL debates #Amendment97ZA seeking to stop male prisoners being housed in women's prisons. We ask the Lords to consider the safety & dignity of women uppermost in the debate & support the amendment #KeepPrisonsSingleSex #PoliceCrimeBill #Amendment214
@NoXYinXXprisons"

Redlake why can’t males who identify as women be kept safe within the male estate? Just as there is secure provision for child molesters, ex policemen, elderly males etc etc. who are at risk in prison. Why does this one subset of males need to serve time in the women’s estate?

@Lovelyricepudding

Women can easily prove that we are disproportionately the victims of male sexual violence

That is why they are working to undermine such statistics and why organisations counting victims of feminine are targeted. If we get rid of sex categories for recording data then we can no longer prove this.

Absolutely this! This is why misogyny is at the base of these changes.

@happydappy2

Redlake why can’t males who identify as women be kept safe within the male estate? Just as there is secure provision for child molesters, ex policemen, elderly males etc etc. who are at risk in prison. Why does this one subset of males need to serve time in the women’s estate?

Again - absolutely this!

I wish everyone in the country could read that comment from redlake. It would peak the nation to hear a man described as a bigot for considering that natal females imprisoned for such heinous crimes as failure to pay a TV licence should have the right not to be at risk of rape from natal males locked up with them.

Females are not resources for servicing male need. They are as equally human, sentient and autonomous as male humans. And the idea that 'only a few females are getting actually, provably, escaped into the press, properly and seriously physically harmed by it so what's the biggie' is abhorrent. It's Dickensian. No decent human would tolerate it.

I need to catch up on recent posts, so I’m unsure of progress today. However, I wanted to commend all of the women and other activists who have worked so effectively to get this on the HoL agenda and give these women a voice. Well done! You are seriously impressive. 👏

The United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners (the Nelson Mandela Rules)
page 5;

Separation of categories
Rule 11
The different categories of prisoners shall be kept in separate institutions or parts of institutions, taking account of their sex, age, criminal record, the legal reason for their detention and the necessities of their treatment; thus:

(a) Men and women shall so far as possible be detained in separate
institutions; in an institution which receives both men and women, the
whole of the premises allocated to women shall be entirely separate

www.unodc.org/documents/justice-and-prison-reform/Nelson_Mandela_Rules-E-ebook.pdf

Dr Kate Coleman continuing to do sterling work on this issue as ever.

Some useful stats for the unaware, from Jean Hachett's tweet:

Women =5% of the prison population. 80% of women are in prison for non violent crime. Women in prison 135% more likely to self harm than men. Over 60% of women in prison have suffered head trauma consistent with domestic abuse

#KeepPrisonsSingleSex
#Amendment214
#Amendment97ZA

Is there a link to watch the debate?

Having looked at the amendment I don't see it going anywhere. But I think getting the amendment enacted into law isn't the primary purpose. I think something more modest and realistic is aimed for here: for there to be a debate and to cause those who support male rapists in women's prisons to take ownership of that position. It's to get them to stand up in Parliament and to go on the public record that this is a valid political goal and should be supported.

It's to make sure that when there's the "how could this happen!" handwringing in a number of years people can say "because these named people expressly pushed for it in the clear knowledge of valid concerns over what the likely outcomes would be".

The session starts at 2.30pm newnamenewyear but it could be hours before the relevant part happens. Or not, there doesn't seem to be a clear timetable available.

www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/055ab7fe-d712-487c-9f97-a474fc02dcff

I should have checked my own link, it's the last agenda item meaning that it could be quite a few hours before the relevant part starts.

If transactivists really wanted to keep transwomen prisoners safe they would be more than happy with that arrangement. Vulnerable transwomen can be housed in a separate trans unit, safe from the male prisoners.

The fact that they aren't happy, and indeed call it prejudice and bigoted shows that the aim isn't to keep trans prisoners safe, it's to validate their identity by housing them in women's prisons.

Prisons are not there to validate an identity.

@OhHolyJesus

Dr Kate Coleman continuing to do sterling work on this issue as ever.

Some useful stats for the unaware, from Jean Hachett's tweet:

Women =5% of the prison population. 80% of women are in prison for non violent crime. Women in prison 135% more likely to self harm than men. Over 60% of women in prison have suffered head trauma consistent with domestic abuse

#KeepPrisonsSingleSex
#Amendment214
#Amendment97ZA

She's amazing!

Dr Kate Coleman is brilliant! What a fantastic, knowledgeable, concise and clear speaker! Super star

Thank you for your work Dr Coleman if you are reading this!

Thank you for sharing the video OhHolyJesus!

@happydappy2

Redlake why can’t males who identify as women be kept safe within the male estate? Just as there is secure provision for child molesters, ex policemen, elderly males etc etc. who are at risk in prison. Why does this one subset of males need to serve time in the women’s estate?

Because the amendment concerns transitioned people who are legally female. That is legally binding under the GRA. That cannot be ignored.

Redlake
Do you never give your head a wobble when you find yourself arguing that male born rapists should be sharing cells with vulnerable women? Or sharing hospital wards with women?

Do you not have the slightest hesitation about cheerleading for this group who of course are desperate to be close to potential victims?

Live coverage of the debate will be here:

www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/055ab7fe-d712-487c-9f97-a474fc02dcff

Possibly as early as 6.30. But possibly not....

Because the amendment concerns transitioned people who are legally female. That is legally binding under the GRA. That cannot be ignored.

Which just goes to prove what utter nonsense gender recognition certificates are really

What with human sex remaining unchanged regardless of ‘gender’

A male who has transitioned has every right to be respected as a TW.

That does not include providing them with physical access to females. Particularly when they are a serious serial sex offender who has preyed on females. You honestly have to be out of your tree, and to see females as nothing more than props in male lives to not get this.

Male people are not owed female bodies. They're not. Regardless of how they feel, how they identify, what legal bits of paper they have. I am not some subordinate species put on this earth to keep biological males happy.

They're now on Legislation: Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill – report stage (day 4). The debate started at 4pm but they might not yet have discussed the single sex prison spaces aspect.

[quote nauticant]The session starts at 2.30pm newnamenewyear but it could be hours before the relevant part happens. Or not, there doesn't seem to be a clear timetable available.

www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/055ab7fe-d712-487c-9f97-a474fc02dcff[/quote]
Thanks x

Because the amendment concerns transitioned people who are legally female.

Yet strangely the prison service/TRA do not recognise them as such - other legally female TW are not considered female when it comes to wanting to be around women.

Because the amendment concerns transitioned people who are legally female. That is legally binding under the GRA. That cannot be ignored

Not for all purposes. And the risks to women cannot be ignored.

@nauticant

Having looked at the amendment I don't see it going anywhere. But I think getting the amendment enacted into law isn't the primary purpose. I think something more modest and realistic is aimed for here: for there to be a debate and to cause those who support male rapists in women's prisons to take ownership of that position. It's to get them to stand up in Parliament and to go on the public record that this is a valid political goal and should be supported.

It's to make sure that when there's the "how could this happen!" handwringing in a number of years people can say "because these named people expressly pushed for it in the clear knowledge of valid concerns over what the likely outcomes would be".

I agree. It's forcing the sunlight.