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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

House of Lords debate #KeepPrisonsSingleSex

191 replies

Alekto · 09/01/2022 22:51

There's to be a debate in the HoL tomorrow pertaining to non-females being able to 'identify' in to women's prisons.

https://twitter.com/womensrightsnet/status/1480252452133822465?s=21

#KeepPrisonsSingleSex is trending at 3 in the UK on twitter but I can't see a thread here, so thought I'd start one. I don't know how the HoL works. Can anyone shed any light about what is likely to happen?

Text of tweet:

"Women's Rights Network - WRN
@WomensRightsNet
·
3h

On 10/1 HOL debates #Amendment97ZA seeking to stop male prisoners being housed in women's prisons. We ask the Lords to consider the safety & dignity of women uppermost in the debate & support the amendment #KeepPrisonsSingleSex #PoliceCrimeBill #Amendment214
@NoXYinXXprisons"

House of Lords debate #KeepPrisonsSingleSex
OP posts:
Datun · 10/01/2022 17:01

@TInkyWlnky

Because the amendment concerns transitioned people who are legally female. That is legally binding under the GRA. That cannot be ignored

Not for all purposes. And the risks to women cannot be ignored.

Except they totally ignore it when it's the other way round. Women who are legally male stay in female prisons. How come it's not legally binding for them?
RepentMotherfucker · 10/01/2022 17:04

Because 'TWAW' but 'TM are whatever we say they are depending on what's expedient for our political aims'

Artichokeleaves · 10/01/2022 17:05

It's to make sure that when there's the "how could this happen!" handwringing in a number of years people can say "because these named people expressly pushed for it in the clear knowledge of valid concerns over what the likely outcomes would be".

And continued to push for it even after those predicted outcomes had happened, women had been harmed - rape is a life changing injury - and felt that these women were mere collateral damage in their agenda and not a problem.

Inhuman.

WeeBisom · 10/01/2022 17:10

I saw on Twitter that some people are upset the Lords haven't discussed the three trans women who killed themselves while serving time in male prisons: Vicky Thompson, Joanne Latham and Jenny Swift. Obviously, any suicide is a tragedy and should not have happened. But I also think it's exploitative and untrue to suggest that these people wouldn't have killed themselves if they had been given access to a female prison.

Vicky was a prisoner at HMP Leeds. It has a huge problem with suicide, with 14 self inflicted deaths between 2012-2017. Vicky was put in a vulnerable unit, but due to staff shortages was not checked very often which is how Vicky was able to take their own life. Vicky did not have a GRC, and had not undergone any gender reassignment treatment. But crucially, in the inquest into Vicky's death witnesses said that Vicky did NOT want to be put into a female jail. Vicky said they were "treated like a god" in the male prison, given special privileges such as solitary shower time, and did not want to live with women as they are "too bitchy". Vicky was invited to write requesting a transfer but never did. Why are Vicky's wishes and intentions not being taken into account?

A female prison wouldn't have helped Joanne Latham either. Joanne was sent to prison for attempted murder after trying to kill a female friend. Joanne then tried to kill two more people in prison, and was moved to a CSC unit which is for the most dangerous and difficult to control prisoners. Joanne was not even eligible to request a transfer to the women's estate, as the female prison system doesn't have a single CSC. Latham transitioned during their time in prison, and so it is doubtful they had a GRC, or underwent medical transition. In any case, even if they could have been sent to a female jail it is likely they would fail the risk assessment because they posed a risk to women.

Jenny Smith was in prison for attempted murder, and committed suicide when the victim died and the charge was upgraded to murder. The paramedic on the scene said it was the worst stabbing he had ever witnessed. At the time of the killing, Jenny identified as a male. Smith had requested a transfer to a woman's prison, and there was every indication this was going to go ahead. Smith had been initially refused hormone treatment as they had been using black market hormones, but after an assessment they were given the green light to go on prescription hormones. Again, there is no evidence that the suicide was caused by a refusal to let Jenny be on the female estate, as Jenny had been told she would probably be transferred. The suicide appears to have been triggered by the charge being upgraded to murder.

Aside from Vicky, the other two prisoners were deemed to be unstable, with anger issues and uncontrolled aggression. They went to prison for exceptionally violent crimes, which are very rare for females to commit. Do women not have a right to object to violent men (for they were men when they committed the crimes) later saying they are women and requesting a prison transfer?

So yes, lets talk about the trans prisoners who sadly killed themselves. Because when you dig into it, you find that their suicides had very little to do with their lack of access to the female prison estate.

oldwomanwhoruns · 10/01/2022 17:19

They're currently talking about stop & search. Have I missed the prisons bit??

Lovelyricepudding · 10/01/2022 17:19

@WeeBisom

I saw on Twitter that some people are upset the Lords haven't discussed the three trans women who killed themselves while serving time in male prisons: Vicky Thompson, Joanne Latham and Jenny Swift. Obviously, any suicide is a tragedy and should not have happened. But I also think it's exploitative and untrue to suggest that these people wouldn't have killed themselves if they had been given access to a female prison.

Vicky was a prisoner at HMP Leeds. It has a huge problem with suicide, with 14 self inflicted deaths between 2012-2017. Vicky was put in a vulnerable unit, but due to staff shortages was not checked very often which is how Vicky was able to take their own life. Vicky did not have a GRC, and had not undergone any gender reassignment treatment. But crucially, in the inquest into Vicky's death witnesses said that Vicky did NOT want to be put into a female jail. Vicky said they were "treated like a god" in the male prison, given special privileges such as solitary shower time, and did not want to live with women as they are "too bitchy". Vicky was invited to write requesting a transfer but never did. Why are Vicky's wishes and intentions not being taken into account?

A female prison wouldn't have helped Joanne Latham either. Joanne was sent to prison for attempted murder after trying to kill a female friend. Joanne then tried to kill two more people in prison, and was moved to a CSC unit which is for the most dangerous and difficult to control prisoners. Joanne was not even eligible to request a transfer to the women's estate, as the female prison system doesn't have a single CSC. Latham transitioned during their time in prison, and so it is doubtful they had a GRC, or underwent medical transition. In any case, even if they could have been sent to a female jail it is likely they would fail the risk assessment because they posed a risk to women.

Jenny Smith was in prison for attempted murder, and committed suicide when the victim died and the charge was upgraded to murder. The paramedic on the scene said it was the worst stabbing he had ever witnessed. At the time of the killing, Jenny identified as a male. Smith had requested a transfer to a woman's prison, and there was every indication this was going to go ahead. Smith had been initially refused hormone treatment as they had been using black market hormones, but after an assessment they were given the green light to go on prescription hormones. Again, there is no evidence that the suicide was caused by a refusal to let Jenny be on the female estate, as Jenny had been told she would probably be transferred. The suicide appears to have been triggered by the charge being upgraded to murder.

Aside from Vicky, the other two prisoners were deemed to be unstable, with anger issues and uncontrolled aggression. They went to prison for exceptionally violent crimes, which are very rare for females to commit. Do women not have a right to object to violent men (for they were men when they committed the crimes) later saying they are women and requesting a prison transfer?

So yes, lets talk about the trans prisoners who sadly killed themselves. Because when you dig into it, you find that their suicides had very little to do with their lack of access to the female prison estate.

It is not women's responsibility to stop men killing themselves. We are not fodder to make them feel better.
Datun · 10/01/2022 17:21

@WeeBisom

I saw on Twitter that some people are upset the Lords haven't discussed the three trans women who killed themselves while serving time in male prisons: Vicky Thompson, Joanne Latham and Jenny Swift. Obviously, any suicide is a tragedy and should not have happened. But I also think it's exploitative and untrue to suggest that these people wouldn't have killed themselves if they had been given access to a female prison.

Vicky was a prisoner at HMP Leeds. It has a huge problem with suicide, with 14 self inflicted deaths between 2012-2017. Vicky was put in a vulnerable unit, but due to staff shortages was not checked very often which is how Vicky was able to take their own life. Vicky did not have a GRC, and had not undergone any gender reassignment treatment. But crucially, in the inquest into Vicky's death witnesses said that Vicky did NOT want to be put into a female jail. Vicky said they were "treated like a god" in the male prison, given special privileges such as solitary shower time, and did not want to live with women as they are "too bitchy". Vicky was invited to write requesting a transfer but never did. Why are Vicky's wishes and intentions not being taken into account?

A female prison wouldn't have helped Joanne Latham either. Joanne was sent to prison for attempted murder after trying to kill a female friend. Joanne then tried to kill two more people in prison, and was moved to a CSC unit which is for the most dangerous and difficult to control prisoners. Joanne was not even eligible to request a transfer to the women's estate, as the female prison system doesn't have a single CSC. Latham transitioned during their time in prison, and so it is doubtful they had a GRC, or underwent medical transition. In any case, even if they could have been sent to a female jail it is likely they would fail the risk assessment because they posed a risk to women.

Jenny Smith was in prison for attempted murder, and committed suicide when the victim died and the charge was upgraded to murder. The paramedic on the scene said it was the worst stabbing he had ever witnessed. At the time of the killing, Jenny identified as a male. Smith had requested a transfer to a woman's prison, and there was every indication this was going to go ahead. Smith had been initially refused hormone treatment as they had been using black market hormones, but after an assessment they were given the green light to go on prescription hormones. Again, there is no evidence that the suicide was caused by a refusal to let Jenny be on the female estate, as Jenny had been told she would probably be transferred. The suicide appears to have been triggered by the charge being upgraded to murder.

Aside from Vicky, the other two prisoners were deemed to be unstable, with anger issues and uncontrolled aggression. They went to prison for exceptionally violent crimes, which are very rare for females to commit. Do women not have a right to object to violent men (for they were men when they committed the crimes) later saying they are women and requesting a prison transfer?

So yes, lets talk about the trans prisoners who sadly killed themselves. Because when you dig into it, you find that their suicides had very little to do with their lack of access to the female prison estate.

Interesting. And yes, I completely agree everything should be talked about.

I have the most supreme confidence that drilling down into all and any of these issues will only be beneficial for women.

Everything relies on obscuring, fudging, misrepresenting.

Clymene · 10/01/2022 17:32

@Redlake - The Equality Act allows exceptions for single sex services, if it can be shown that they are a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. The EHRC has also said that this is unaffected by whether or not someone holds a GRC.

So basically, what you said is cobblers.

ArabellaScott · 10/01/2022 17:44

thanks, WeeBisom.

Agree this all needs discussed. Specific examples such as the ones you mention are all very good examples of why males should be in male prison.

PonyPatter44 · 10/01/2022 17:45

Redlake, if biological sex is whatever the owner of the body says it is, why does the MoJ still refuse to house transmen offenders in the male estate?

nauticant · 10/01/2022 17:48

They're currently talking about stop & search. Have I missed the prisons bit??

I don't think so. We're waiting for the debate to get to amendment 97ZA and we're still heading in that direction.

TInkyWlnky · 10/01/2022 17:48

Except they totally ignore it when it's the other way round. Women who are legally male stay in female prisons. How come it's not legally binding for them?

Hmm, it's a mystery that. Could it be to do with the fact that they are at significant risk of harm and sexual assault from the born males that they would be forced to share with? Sounds familiar that.

happydappy2 · 10/01/2022 18:36

Redlake do you think a male being granted legal recognition as a woman makes them an actual woman in real life?

They are still male and should be housed safely within the male estate.

nauticant · 10/01/2022 19:21

Amendment 97ZA is now being discussed.

BettyFilous · 10/01/2022 19:23

Anyone know if BBC Parliament is screening the debate?

jeaux90 · 10/01/2022 19:29

On on Parliament Tv Betty

oldwomanwhoruns · 10/01/2022 19:30

Who is speaking?? He just seems concerned about the poor menz

nauticant · 10/01/2022 19:32

Lord Blencathra who proposed amendment 97ZA opens with a sensible speech, single sex should mean single sex, third spaces provide the best way of ensuring safety for both women and transwomen.

oldwomanwhoruns · 10/01/2022 19:35

Hmm, too much 'case by case basis' and 'vulnerable trans women' for my taste...
I like plain speaking

nauticant · 10/01/2022 19:41

Next up is Lord Paddick. His position at least is clear: the Home Office would put into "segregated facilities" people born male, 20 years "living as a woman", with full GRS, and with a GRC.

He came out with "born in the wrong sex".

NecessaryScene · 10/01/2022 19:42

If transwomen get "case by case" and vulnerable, what about all the other men? Why should any vulnerable men who are a low risk be treated differently from a transwoman?

oldwomanwhoruns · 10/01/2022 19:47

Oh god. No mention of women, just the poor men.
The last chap said exactly the same stuff, and had a resounding 'hear hear' from the benches when he sat down.
All very depressing.

Now a lady up. who is good.

yourhairiswinterfire · 10/01/2022 19:52

Oh god. No mention of women, just the poor men.

It was the same when talking about rapists at the other debate.

''Won't somebody think of the poor, oppressed, misunderstood rapists!" basically Hmm

TInkyWlnky · 10/01/2022 19:52

There needs to be a third space for these people. Making the womens estate unsafe by adding born males to it is not the answer.