Shouted at and called a bigot

[MapleAple]

I had a horrible night on Friday and feel really sad and disappointed in myself.

I go to the pub monthly as part of a meet-up for a hobby group. Trans issues have never come up in conversation before.

I'm not neurotypical and find it very hard to verbally debate/discuss things. I didn't engage in a conversation or automatically agree with something, and the person leading the conversation noticed this and started questioning me, very loudly and directly.

I'd love to be tough enough to state my feelings and have a conversation but I find it really difficult to process fast speech or frame responses and in this situation I was basically monologued at by this person very loudly, calling me a transphobe and various other things, I kept trying to get a word in, but then got upset because the manner of the person speaking was very aggressive. Basically left in tears.

I don't think I'll go back. She didn't want to hear what I had to say because I didn't immediately agree that all TWAW. I'm disappointed in myself for not being able to speak up, but I find myself completely crumbling in these situations.

I'm sure many others have felt unable to speak up and say how they feel. It's awful.

She made me feel like I was basically an evil disgusting bitch for not agreeing.

Does anyone else just completely fall apart when discussing these things with very vocally dominant and shouty people?

How are we ever supposed to make a stand/state our opinions/explain where we're coming from if we just get shouted down?

This person doesn't sound like someone you should spend time with. Personally I don't think there's any point trying to debate with people like this. I just smile and nod and maybe, if I'm feeling brave, throw in a slightly awkward question. Like "obviously yeah but also this sports/prisons thing seems a bit complicated doesn't it? I'm not sure we've quite figured that one out yet".

And don't beat yourself up for feeling upset. What they did was basically bullying. They're a bully.

From what you've said, the people around you will have felt she was haranguing and bullying you. Take a breath, avoid her, and let it go. It isn't your job to be articulate and fight this battle on every front.

The reason most of these people get so very aggressive and angry, is their own cognitive dissonance, OP. They are unnerved by having to actually argue things which are basically nonsensical. And they are scared you will say something which will be impossible to answer. It's not you I know it's hard.

That's horrible and that person is a bully. You won't ever change her mind, and she didn't want to hear your views. Her monologue was designed to a) show that she is a good little ideologue and b) ensure that everyone else is scared to disagree. I'm not sure what the answer is re being able to think on your feet (I struggle with that myself) but I hope you're ok.

Dont beat yourself up for running into a nasty bullying git.I dont suppose it would have made any difference if you had the quick witted verbal dexterity of, say, Germaine Greer or Oscar Wilde, these people aren't listening anyway. Sounds like you re better off out of it if this group has people like that in it-did no one else call out this cow for her hectoring and batshittery?

People shouting over you is bullying so it's not surprising you didn't like it. She sounds nasty.

Tell her you identify as male and found her discussion ill informed. That'll make her confused if nothing else.

As picklemewalnuts has said OP, others will have noted her behaviour. This ideology has no logic or coherence underpinning it so can only be enforced by bullying and shouting over someone else. You can guarantee she'll have treated others in this way. As suggested, maybe having a couple of points you know you'd like to make - the sport / prisons comment above is great.

It's also worth practising a short phrase to use with anyone who's trying to shout you down. Something like
"I'm not shouting at you - please don't shout at me. Thank you". or
"I'm speaking calmly / respectfully to you - it would be great if you could do the same to me. Thanks."

Please don't feel disappointed in yourself - it's bloody hard to argue some of this stuff coherently. Maybe you could try going back next week and sit away from her? You shouldn't be driven out of a hobby by someone else's bullying.

Don’t feel disappointed. You showed her up without even saying a word.
Very powerful.

I'm really sorry you've been through this.

Don't take this as representative of normal everyday interactions. Most adults discuss things without making someone else leave crying.

I'm pretty much assuming and am prepared to be corrected that the bully in question was a TW or another type of "she", certainly someone on the extremist end of the spectrum in gender ideology.

Most people aren't extremists. Most people are normal.

The louder you get shouted down, the more it proves that the ideology is completely illogical.

They know that if you try to have a rational discussion, pure logic will expose the emperors lack of clothes straight away.

They can't risk that. Hence the denial of free speech and bullying tactics that are driven by a fear of being exposed by the truth.

Sorry you were spoken to like that. Some people are incapable of listening or debating - shame on them. Please don't be disappointed in yourself. If you do decide to go back and have to speak to this person again, maybe you can prepare what you would like to say in advance.

Can you email the organiser? Something like you felt attacked and shouted at even though you didn’t say anything. While you understand it’s an issue that provokes strong emotions, the purpose of the group is not based on discussing that particular issue (*assuming it’s not) and you don’t want to be harassed into any unrelated political discussions be it gender, brexit, religion, vaccinations or whatever.

If it’s a proper group they should have bullying policies. Remember if you didn’t say anything it’s all on them and you don’t have to give any views on the gender issue. You could have a very bland ‘I want everyone to be treated well and I don’t want to discuss it further’ line and repeat it.

I don't understand why the TWAW is popping up in a hobby group. It's like some obsession to push a new religion on unsuspecting people when they're relaxed.

Complain to the organiser. Most groups have rules - having a rants rage at someone who doesn’t agree (with absolute twaddle) should have them kicked out. I’m sure wit made others feel uncomfortable (although they should have spoken up at the time).

Thanks so much for your responses all.

I'm not aware of the woman being trans. Generally you can tell, she seemed to be a female.

The organiser was there and kept her north shut.

No idea if they all agree TWAW, nobody really spoke up, apart from a few "hmmm, no, I don't think it's the same" when the shouty woman compared me to a racist and said that being GC is the same as being racist.

I'd love to be eloquent and strong and be able to engage and argue. I probably could have done if the shouter wasn't so in my face and loud. I just felt really attacked and chose flight.

Another complain to the organiser comment here. And they should have shut this down as soon as they saw the bullying. I take it no one has checked on you either?

Also agree with other comments, you could be super eloquent with plenty of comebacks but shouty mctwatface wouldn't have paid any notice. They rant and shout because they haven't got a constructive argument.

She’s shown her arse. If anyone agreed with her, it would have been very easy to make that known. Less so to disagree with a crazed ideologist.
I’d bet money on them disagreeing with her but choosing to stay quiet in the hope she’d shut up and they could continue the rest of their evening in peace.

it really doesn't matter how quick or prepared you had been, it sounds like it wasn't a debate, just her ramming her opinions down people's throats. you can't argue with people like that.

I'm lucky in so far as I can mentally distance myself enough in the moment to have at least something to throw back, or at a minimum point out that they're making the atmosphere uncomfortable, but I wouldn't have got anywhere in that situation. there's no reasoning with someone who squeals 'BIGOT' at the first sign of an opposing view. it shows a complete lack of critical thinking and respectful conversation.

I understand why you don't want to go back, but think it would be a shame to let one wanker bully you out.

I think you did what you could in that situation. You didn't automatically agree and go along with something you disagreed with. Most people do. I think that shows a real strength and you should recognise that in yourself. Not everyone shows strength in the same ways. Whatever the other person feels, that person was wrong to harangue you in that way in a public situation. You did well OP

I’m so sorry for what happened to you.
Would love to come with you next time and make her cry, she sounds like a nasty bully that only respects people more agressive then her. Next time she shouts, get up from your seat, look her straight in the eye and say: your behavior is abusive. Trying to intimidate me is harassment. You’re a bully.

Basically, shame her in front of everyone like she tried to shame you. I’m not an agressive person but if someone is trying to shout at me like that I have a nearly uncontrollable desire to punch their face to make them shut up. She thinks she’s getting away with it because nobody is challenging her on this behavior. Please find the courage to tell her exactly what she is if she tries again.

Also, please email the organizer and tell her you want to complain about what happened, a very unsafe environment was created for you right in front of her and she did nothing.
Your views are contrary to racism, not illegal and should be respected without any tolerance for abuse from others. Literally ask her what she’s going to do about this from now on. Maybe if it’s written down on paper she feels more motivated to stand up for you as she knows from now on it’s documented.

@Linguini

I'm really sorry you've been through this.

Don't take this as representative of normal everyday interactions. Most adults discuss things without making someone else leave crying.

I'm pretty much assuming and am prepared to be corrected that the bully in question was a TW or another type of "she", certainly someone on the extremist end of the spectrum in gender ideology.

Most people aren't extremists. Most people are normal.

many of the most vociferous and nasty apologists for gender ideology are 'allies'.

@MapleAple

Thanks so much for your responses all.

I'm not aware of the woman being trans. Generally you can tell, she seemed to be a female.

The organiser was there and kept her north shut.

No idea if they all agree TWAW, nobody really spoke up, apart from a few "hmmm, no, I don't think it's the same" when the shouty woman compared me to a racist and said that being GC is the same as being racist.

I'd love to be eloquent and strong and be able to engage and argue. I probably could have done if the shouter wasn't so in my face and loud. I just felt really attacked and chose flight.

OP, what a horrible experience. I'm so sorry. Sounds like a fucking struggle session.

The few hmmms are actually people speaking up, as best they can. I know it sounds weak, but that is a small glimmer of hope, right there.