Shouted at and called a bigot

[MapleAple]

I had a horrible night on Friday and feel really sad and disappointed in myself.

I go to the pub monthly as part of a meet-up for a hobby group. Trans issues have never come up in conversation before.

I'm not neurotypical and find it very hard to verbally debate/discuss things. I didn't engage in a conversation or automatically agree with something, and the person leading the conversation noticed this and started questioning me, very loudly and directly.

I'd love to be tough enough to state my feelings and have a conversation but I find it really difficult to process fast speech or frame responses and in this situation I was basically monologued at by this person very loudly, calling me a transphobe and various other things, I kept trying to get a word in, but then got upset because the manner of the person speaking was very aggressive. Basically left in tears.

I don't think I'll go back. She didn't want to hear what I had to say because I didn't immediately agree that all TWAW. I'm disappointed in myself for not being able to speak up, but I find myself completely crumbling in these situations.

I'm sure many others have felt unable to speak up and say how they feel. It's awful.

She made me feel like I was basically an evil disgusting bitch for not agreeing.

Does anyone else just completely fall apart when discussing these things with very vocally dominant and shouty people?

Contact the organiser and tell her you were bullied by this person (horrible person), and don't feel safe to return, though you don't want to stop your hobby or stop socialising. As the organiser, what can she do to help? Are you the only one who was uncomfortable?

This is the problem with the MRAs and their henchmen. They know it's all bollocks so they go straight into attack mode so no one is able to interrupt let alone really question anything hey say.

Perhaps if the group know that everyone was made to feel uncomfortable by this woman then one of them would challenge her. It's not knowing where people stand on an issue that keeps people from speaking up - when the likelihood is that few agree with her. If no one was enthusiastically agreeing with her, chances are they don't.

Maybe the organiser can call her and say that no one enjoyed her diatribe and it would be best for all if she didn't repeat that sort of behaviour again,

Thank you all.

I will msg the leader and tell them how I felt. Regardless of the topic nobody should be spoken to like that.

Very much felt like she had zero interest in allowing me to respond, she just got louder. Sadly yes, very much in line with behaviour of TRAs, we're absolutely not allowed a voice, it's not a discussion. I've never been spoken to like that in public.

Depressing isn't it. I said to DH last night that I'm tired of even speaking out, part of me just wants to nod and smile going forward. But that's even more depressing. I don't want to have to not say how I (and many other women) feel.

The group should have an anti bullying policy, so when you talk to the organiser, frame it as disappointment that the group allowed another member to bully you and shout at you, and stick to that and how upset it made you feel.
The reason she shouted isnt relevant and will just muddy the issue, so try not to get drawn into any discussion about beliefs.

@MapleAple that sounds awful. I think I would have been incredibly upset, too. I’m not great with confrontation.

I have had experiences with friends where this conversation has come up and I’ve been made to feel an arsehole (one friend cried when I didn’t agree with her, which was a bit wtf) Unfortunately, all the counter points I should have made usually come to me after the fact as I get a bit flustered when everyone’s knee jerk reaction is just that I’m actually all of a sudden a right wing bigot!

My two close friends refused to admit that men were much of a threat to women generally just to avoid agreeing with me and we were equal these days! The other day one of them complained about a male in her life inflicting the “same women hating shit” on her, and I felt really dismayed.

I think if it comes up in future I’m just going to try and avoid responding. They don’t want to consider a viewpoint that differs, they just want to feel morally superior.

Definitely make a complaint to the organiser and explain why you feel uncomfortable going back. No one should bully anyone for not agreeing with them. Would this individual have shouted at someone with culturally religious views that meant they disagreed?

When I’m in this situation I usually just hold to the same firm line “I believe females should have access to female only spaces and female only intimate care” and I might just say “I can see we’re not going to agree and you’re not going to convince me otherwise so shall we just leave that topic?”

That way I can’t get flustered or not mention important points in the face of a particularly aggressive ideologist. I just hold my firm line and refuse to be drawn in.

Sorry this happened to you, OP.

If it's any comfort, anyone who witnessed this incident and who is on the fence about the issue may just start to question the legitimacy of an ideology that needs to bully people into accepting it rather than persuade them with logic and reason.

You are right, this person did not want you to be able to respond, because they were afraid that others listening would see that your questions/concerns/viewpoint were legitimate and not bigoted. They needed to keep you silent and to show others that if you don't toe the party line, you will be publicly ridiculed.

My standard question now for people who say 'TWAW' is "What is the basis for making exceptions for this subset of men when it comes to access to single-sex spaces?" The person insisting on TWAW will rarely be persuaded from this standpoint, but it gives anyone else listening food for thought. It makes clear that we are talking about men here, just a subset of men with a desire to identify in a particular way and that desire makes them no more a woman than any other man.

18 months ago, I would have felt cowed in a similar situation, or found it difficult to speak up because I did think we should "be kind". But now I am perfectly comfortable in my stance and to be honest, I'll happily walk away from any friend/situation who adheres to that mantra because I can't respect anyone who actually believes it.

I've actually done such a 180 from "be kind" to getting into a fit of giggles when someone keeps insisting TWAW because it is so patently ridiculous. If they don't like discussion, you should see how much they dislike someone laughing at the very notion and not displaying any guilt for it!

I just hold my firm line and refuse to be drawn in.

This - can also be known as the broken record technique. Absolutely the best way to defuse a situation where someone wants to have a pointless row with you. Shouting at someone in a hobby group and directing insults at them. WTF.

I wholeheartedly agree with previous posters. You should be very proud of yourself- after all your friends were intimidated into mumbling or embarrassed silence. Definitely write to the group leader. The wheel is always turning!

I’m autistic and can verbally spar with the best of them - in terms of ad-lib comedy and/or positive stuff.

But when someone goes off at me with illogical ideology, my brain just shuts down.

1. I do not expect to be spoken to like that by ANYONE. Nor would I speak like that to anyone.

1. I simply don’t know how to deal with illogical nonsense.

Sorry you had to suffer that OP.

Glad you're making a complaint.

TRAs are known for being aggressive and shutting down debate. It's tough enough engaging with them on Twitter.

@RunningInTheWind

I’m autistic and can verbally spar with the best of them - in terms of ad-lib comedy and/or positive stuff.

But when someone goes off at me with illogical ideology, my brain just shuts down.

1. I do not expect to be spoken to like that by ANYONE. Nor would I speak like that to anyone.

1. I simply don’t know how to deal with illogical nonsense.

Sorry you had to suffer that OP.

Exactly this!

If I'm upset or angry my ability to speak all but disappears and 9/10 times I end up crying. Partly because of the issue being discussed and being shouted at, and partly because I'm so frustrated at not being able to verbalise in the way I want to.

If only I could send data/spreadsheets in response as opposed to having to speak.

Thanks to everyone who has been so supportive today. I'm still upset and angry today. I'm going to send a message to the organiser explaining that I'm disappointed that she did not step in to diffuse the argument and to say that I'm not happy with the aggressive manner of the other woman.

However as this happened post "group activity" in the pub I'm not sure if she has any jurisdiction over it, we'll see.

I think it's great that you're speaking up, whether or not the organiser can do anything about it. It is not fair that one person can bully others.

@pawpatrolneedaunion

Tell her you identify as male and found her discussion ill informed. That'll make her confused if nothing else.

I love that. I normally just calmly state my opinions. But next time I might say, ' sorry, are you assuming I am a woman?!'

And sit back and enjoy the the stuttering as they try to gather a response.

My two close friends refused to admit that men were much of a threat to women

This! I have a friend who before all this nonsense would animatedly discuss all the sexist shit she has faced from being trailed by men in cars as a child to being leered at by male interviewees in job interviews. But now, as a guardian reading self-identified TWAW leftie, has to pretend that men are NOT responsible for most sex attacks and that women are at risk from sex attacks by other women too, so we shouldn't be more fearful of being attacked by men than women!

This is the reality defying shit you have to make up to defend all this utter bollocks. Its satisfying really, to know they can't defend themselves using actual real data, and have to even ignore their own life experiences as a woman

Not read the whole thread but wanted to offer what a horrible situation for you to have been put in! And shame on others who didn’t help you out.

It sounds like it’s shaken you up, these things stay with us so don’t feel bad that you’re worrying about it. But don’t also feel bad for not returning.

In a similar position I'm probably going to say I'm considering being Agender so would like privacy on the matter and to not be expected to say anymore.

The reason being, I cannot say TWATW at work (the truth) even though legally I should be able to. I would be targeted. I cannot say TWAW as I know this isn't true and I would be letting all women down.

So I would want to shut the conversation down, keep my job and not discuss further. Freedom of speech only applies to those following the new religion.

Regardless of the subject matter, she sounds like a bully who cannot accept other points of view. I don't think she's someone worth knowing.

@picklemewalnuts

From what you've said, the people around you will have felt she was haranguing and bullying you. Take a breath, avoid her, and let it go. It isn't your job to be articulate and fight this battle on every front.

This. Do the wider hobby group have a way of getting in touch with you directly? I wouldn’t be at all surprised if some of them reach out to you, especially if you stop going and they enjoy your company. The other person sounds awful. You shouldn’t be compelled to give an answer. They should have respected your decision not to pitch in.

I also agree with informing the organiser how much this has upset you. I hope you feel able to do that.

How do you feel about calling her disablist?

However as this happened post "group activity" in the pub I'm not sure if she has any jurisdiction over it

Maybe she could simply send a message to the whole group reminding them of the group ethos which would normally be something like "we do not tolerate disrespectful, intimidating or threatening behaviour towards any of our members".

That would be something, and avoids naming people or being specific.

I would just give her the finger and find other people to talk to, fascists dont deserve the time of day.

sounds like no one else agreed with her if they didn't say anything 🙃 she sounds awful, how horrible and spiteful to single you out just because you didn't engage. it's targeted bullying and really horrible behaviour.

I dont think it's a bad thing you said nothing, I would feel the same as you though re wishing I could have responded. but this way makes her look even more like a horrible bully. I'm betting most if not all of everyone else doesn't agree with her, at least not entirely, but haven't really realised yet. more people are gender critical than we think!

nobody really spoke up, apart from a few "hmmm, no, I don't think it's the same" when the shouty woman compared me to a racist and said that being GC is the same as being racist.

I think the bully scored an own goal there, MapleAple! Sounds as if the others didn't agree with Shoutywoman, but were too timid or embarrassed to confront her. By verbally attacking you, showering you with really stupid abuse, she will have alienated a lot of people. Not a good ambassador for the gender identity movement.