What has Stewart Lee done?

[concernedfriend500]

I see lots of people on Twitter are slagging off Stewart Lee because he listed a lot of non-woke folk like Graham Linehan in his "pedal bin" of people he doesn't like. What is his public stance on the Trans Rights campaign though? I've not heard/read anything but I've probably missed it.

Oh god, the JKR thing will be one of his 'jokes' which goes on and on, for 10 minutes, and repeats itself 50 times for effect, while he basks in the glory of being so much cleverer than any other comedian out there.

Comedians are in a business where you literally spend decades performing in a comedy persona while a) pretending it's you, b) performatively despising those who take the persona seriously and as if it's you and c) verbally abusing those who don't take the persona seriously and heckle them to come out of character.

Actually I don't mind any of that, it's a direct descent from the role of the licensed Fool etc (thoroughly recommend the Rest is History episode where Al Murray digs into comedy in history - v interesting). But it is a fact that they understand the vulnerability of mixing reality and performance in daily life, and how it 'working' depends on other people buying into it.

It's why it's predictable that Alastair Campbell would be publicly TWAW - whether or not he really believes it, his daughter is trying to make it as a comedian and she would be very brutally required to denounce him if he strayed, or suffer professional consequences. He loves his daughter.

Who is his daughter?

True, he hasn't done "jokes" in years. I can get the resentful at other successful comedians schtick that he plays with, but if he comes at a woman, wealthy though she is, who has been receiving doxxing, rape threats, media smear campaigns, it goes on and on... then I think I'll have to tune him out.

But say thanks for FOF and all the other Lee & Herring stuff. Interesting that Herring has got it wrong too.

Grace Campbell

And if they had heard of her, would he be making jokes about her? Of course not. For Lee, Christie, Acaster, Widdicombe, Nish Kumar, and all the other wokesters, the underpinning argument is that trans women are the most marginalised group in society, and that big powerful celebrities like JK Rowling and Ricky Gervais are punching down at them. Trying to portray a social worker at risk of losing her job, or a Black lesbian lawyer who survived child abuse, or a children's writer driven out of publishing, as powerful figures punching down at poor vulnerable trans women like Caitlyn Jenner is always going to be a harder line to peddle.

“The problem now is that there are comedians on our circuit that are specifically and explicitly from the right,” he adds. “So I think people can be forgiven for feeling differently about Jerry ... The ground has shifted around him. Last time I saw him ten years ago, [his act] was still really good. But it’s a different world, unfortunately.”

Such a disappointing response from Lee, you would think that he would defend freedom of speech, not come up with this odd argument that because there are ‘comedians on the right (haven’t there always been?) then we can’t defend free speech anymore, or say anything that’s not politically correct (even ironically) again. it seems really weak of him and self preserving, same as siding against JKR.

One of the very few places you may have seen Jerry Sadowitz on UK television was Stewart Lees show. Not sure what that says about anything.

Such a disappointing response from Lee, you would think that he would defend freedom of speech

Nah, I wouldn't. I love his humour but at heart he's a proper little totalitarian.

I don't understand the point Lee is even trying to make? What's right wing anything got to do with it?

I guess some right wing media outlets amplified the debate around what happened, but they sure as anything didn't cause what happened.

And as for implying it's Sadowitz's fault for not moving with the times, that's really surprising from someone who previously championed him. Am I missing something?

I think his point is that in the past, everyone was safe in the knowledge that all comedians were very left wing and had the correct opinions. So when they dropped a slur or made nasty comments about women it was fine, because they are being ironic, you just don’t have a sense of humour.

But now there are comedians who dare to disagree with Lee and his mates on a certain topic. Which means we can’t joke about anything in case we’re actually right wing and not just, you know, making a joke. So all comedy must become a boring, po-faced lecture without any actual jokes, and clapping replaces laughter.

Ah thanks Iapasion I just didn't read it as that - just some good old fashioned gatekeeping. Suppose it's just hard to see people like him, Billy Bragg etc actually seeming to get stupider as they get older, when they once seemed so smart and incisive.

Very much understand where the Triggernometry guys come from these days.

He's a poor man Daniel Kitson and he knows it.

Suppose it's just hard to see people like him, Billy Bragg etc actually seeming to get stupider as they get older, when they once seemed so smart and incisive.

It is hard when it's people you used to admire. I've never cared for Billy Bragg, I always thought his voice was utterly dreary, so while it's disappointing that he turns out to be fully on board with a woman-hating ideology, I also think, well, at least I didn't waste several years paying money to listen to him. Stewart Lee, though, is someone I used to like. I've seen him perform several times, and contrary to what people are saying, he can be extremely funny. It's not as if the audience just sits there clapping self-righteously while he stands there saying "People who voted for Brexit are racists!" He has always seemed to me to be far more nuanced and sophisticated than people have given him credit for.

Let's remember too that he has personal experience of the consequences of closing down free speech as a result of the attacks by Christian groups on Jerry Springer: the Opera (which is brilliant, by the way).

So yes, it is a massive kick in the teeth that he is too cowardly to stand up for women or even to stand up for his old mate Jerry Sadowitz. He's not so stupid that he doesn't understand what's at stake - and if for some reason he doesn't, then he is perfectly capable of doing the research to inform himself - so it is, unfortunately, pure cowardice.

@badbaduncle oohhhhhh vi.vi..vi..ccioousssssss

Suppose it's just hard to see people like him, Billy Bragg etc actually seeming to get stupider as they get older, when they once seemed so smart and incisive.

When both they and I were young censorship was very much a tool of the right. At the time everyone on the left was massively pro free speech.

I think it's really clear from Stuart Lee's statement that he sees the politics as more important than the principal. Yes, it's a massive shame that these people can't see that defending everyone's rights is the only way to defend our rights.

When I joined FWR many, many years ago it was (on average) fairly totalitarian with lots of posters saying the state should ban this or censor that because it was misogynistic. Now that feminists are under the cosh we have suddenly seen the value of individual liberty. I hope we will remember that when the dark days of Genderism are gone.

I just think lots of men are going along with this because it either benefits them in some way, or it had no impact on them what so ever and its any easy way to look relevant. I don't think its deeper than that.

When we are young, its easy to to fooled by people spouting words, but as we get older we understand they are just twats with microphones and they don't understand half the things they are talking about.

I just think lots of men are going along with this because it either benefits them in some way, or it had no impact on them what so ever and its any easy way to look relevant.

True. It's unfortunate that Stewart Lee's wife is an equally enthusiastic advocate for gender ideology. What's her excuse?

“The problem now is that there are comedians on our circuit that are specifically and explicitly from the right,” he adds. “So I think people can be forgiven for feeling differently about Jerry ... The ground has shifted around him. Last time I saw him ten years ago, [his act] was still really good. But it’s a different world, unfortunately.”

I always assumed, wrongly obviously, that Lee's criticism of Michael MacIntyre was because he thought MM was just giving the audience what they wanted to hear rather than anything different. But given his comment about Sadowitz's not responding to this new world, it can't have been that. I really did think he believed performers should perform the act they wanted to perform, not just crowd pleasers.

She's taken that stance for many years now, which I think is more of a dated view rather than a view ahead of it's time, I know because she says TWAW in A Book For Her which I bought perhaps 7 or 8 years ago. The years seemed to have doubled her down sadly.

I love Daniel Kitson! Proper funny man.

I wonder if Lee and Richard Herring have talked about Sadowitz lately?

this is an old post from Herring’s blog but he is very supportive of Sadowitz.

www.richardherring.com/press/6286/interview_with_the_scotsman_about_jerry_sadowitz.html

these are Herring’s recent comments on Sadowitz:

I was saddened to see that Jerry Sadowitz has had his second of two performances cancelled by the Pleasance. Jerry was one of the first acts I ever saw at the Fringe back in 87 and is a master of offence and over the years I have found his shows challenging and upsetting. Which is what they are supposed to be. It is more theatre than comedy in some ways and to complain about him being offensive is like asking the actor who plays Macbeth to be arrested for murder. His audience should know what they’re getting into, as should any theatre that books him. Ultimately it works as an act, because it’s about self-hatred and Jerry is the lowest of the low, striking out at everyone, saying things he shouldn’t say without discrimination (ie he is terribly offensive about everyone), railing against the Universe because of his own unhappiness with his lot. I can’t tell you how much truth there is in it, but the joke is on Jerry and his shows are an incredible rollercoaster and one that comes with a warning. Last time I saw him he really challenged my sensibilities on a number of topics and made me feel very shocked and even unhappy. Which is why it was an amazing show. Good to be challenged.
I don’t know the full details of what caused his show to be cancelled, though it seems to be because the set didn’t conform to the values of the Pleasance, so it is likely to be about him using forbidden words. But that’s the point of him. So the Pleasance should have made that decision before they put him on at all. It’s not like he’s a new act. Whatever the truth it is another example of the Fringe not feeling very Fringey this year and whether he’s guilty of something unforgiveable or not, it made me unhappy to hear about it. Jerry has nothing but disdain for me (at least in the occasional mentions in his act), but that doesn’t stop me wanting him to be able to carry on what he’s doing.

from this blog post dated August 13th:

www.richardherring.com/warmingup/13/8/2022/index.html

Its a middle class ideology, they are firmly middle class themselves.

This ideology virtually ignores poverty and limited opportunities because of lack of contacts, instead it looks at very small groups. It makes sense when people who are already established favour minority inclusion, because its about limiting their competition.

Why would they open the door to the masse?

BC left school at 14 and worked for the Daily Mail for a number of years. We accuse a lot of women of being privileged and leading sheltered, middle-class lives (which is my life too btw) but I thought she might be different.

I find Kitson too clever for my feeble mind and he can have a real temper. Saw the one with all the light bulbs at the Traverse and he went off the rails and had a right rant at the techies. Swearing and cursing... and was bored witless by all the tape machines at Summerhall. My friend though extolled his virtues whilst decrying my lack of intellect to understand the 'master'.

My opinion may be out of date (like my styles!)

will have another look, with your comment in mind.