Trans prisoners ‘switch gender again’ once freed from women’s units

[NutellaEllaElla]

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Choice quotes:
"On Christmas Eve, Scotland’s prison population stood at 7,435, with only 259 listed as women. A total of 15 prisoners were trans, 12 of them trans women and three trans men. It is understood that all are currently held in female units as previous experience of trans men in the male estate had caused tensions."

"In England and Wales there have been a small number of incidents of violence and sexual violence involving female prisoners being attacked by trans prisoners....The study by Dr Matthew Maycock of Dundee University’s school of education and social work turned up no such disturbing behaviour in Scotland, with only some discomfort about very limited consensual sexual activity.

One Scottish Prison Service (SPS) source said: “There have been incidents, but very minor. No one can say for certain that nothing significant has happened, but if it has none has been reported.”

However, Maycock’s report did identify fears among female inmates of predatory behaviour by some trans prisoners, with one suggesting “the transitions of transgender people might be an attempt by paedophiles or other sex offenders to access cis-women in the female prison estate”.

Another woman told of a transwoman prisoner in her work party whose views “were totally wrong. He wanted to be in this hall because he wanted to have sex with loads of lassies.”

I'm shocked I tell you.

Not a single comment in support. What a surprise.

Quelle surprise.

Funny isn't it how every single thing women warned would happen is happening - despite all the attempts to hide everything and threaten those asking questions

How much do you want to bet that the 'fully transitioned' male simply has some fake boobs? I doubt the genitalia is gone!

”It is understood that all are currently held in female units as previous experience of trans men in the male estate had caused tensions."

Yes, of course. Transmen (females) experience “tensions” when incarcerated with males. Sorry to be so ineloquent, but fucking duh.

Solution?

Let’s incarcerate natal males with females (honestly, I don’t care if you have a penis or not, though not having a penis might help a bit), because no “tensions” exist when females are incarcerated with males.

Oh, hang on…

Budge over. Be kind, ladies. Your entire existence is based on accommodating males, their violence, and most certainly their feelings. Do remember your place.

Shocker.

“It is a cruel and unusual punishment when failing to pay your TV licence can result in being forced to share a shower with a male sex offender. Single-sex prisons need to be reinstated immediately; the prison service has already shown it is capable of safely housing men, however they identify, in the male estate.”

Also, still no mention of the prison officers. Every single day women prison officers are being sexually assaulted by being forced to search men. Will I be deleted if I suggest that some (at least) of the men enjoy that both from a sexual and a power point of view?

the transitions of transgender people might be an attempt by paedophiles or other sex offenders to access cis-women in the female prison estate

But, I thought that would never happen.

Just read that the policy to place male offenders in women's prisons was signed off by Gordon Pike, then a manager in the Scottish Prison Service. And now a convicted paedophile.

And these people think they are 'being kind'.

Another interesting point raised in the comments is that 15 trans women out of a prison population of 259 women is 6% - far higher than in the general population.

It's almost as if male people who identify as trans don't behave in the same way as female people.

Gosh I'm surprised. Are you surprised? I was surprised.

As for 'not much reported' - we know that many women's reports are denied, not recorded, lost, eaten by the Welsh Govt's dog..... great lengths are gone to to avoid recording because the evidence is really not wanted. There are MNetters who have attended a formal meeting to discuss concerns who then experienced those who led the meeting denying it had ever taken place or any woman had ever raised a concern with them.

So pull the other one, it's got bloody bells on it.

@heathspeedwell yup.

12 or 15 doesn't sound that many. But, when you do the maths, that's one in twenty. Which means every female prisoner is probably sharing living quarters, washing facilities, etc which someone with a dick.

That's an appalling breach of their rights.

How astonishing. Perhaps gender dysphoria is episodic though and I am being too harsh. Involuntary buncing we could call it.

Is there any actual evidence of trans prisoners switching gender when released? Any concrete examples of this happening? Because all we have here is the anecdotal presumption of one female prisoner which is being promoted as fact by the headline.

@BlueberryCheezecake

Is there any actual evidence of trans prisoners switching gender when released? Any concrete examples of this happening? Because all we have here is the anecdotal presumption of one female prisoner which is being promoted as fact by the headline.

Do you have evidence that they don't?

15 trans to 244 women (259-15) is actually nearer 1 in 16, and since the 15 may be higher and the 244 lower due to the fact that hose with GRCs don't count as trans but are included in the "women" figures, it may be a lot higher!

For example if there are 5 prisoners with GRCs, the numbers become 20 trans to 239 women, or more than 1 in 12. These numbers demonstrate clearly how a very small number of trans prisoners can skew the entire population.

5 may be thought unlikely, but since there are around 8000 male prisoners in Scotland (correct me if I'm wrong), 5 isn't an unreasonable possibility.

What’s interesting is how the original paper seems to take a much more sympathetic line of enquiry to trans women being housed in the female prison estate. And, I thought, was more critical of female prisoners expressing their concerns about being housed with trans women.

Around half of the participants in this study held views that were more closely aligned to the prejudiced views towards transgender people outlined in the British Social Attitudes Survey. Within the prison context this took a particular manifestation, insofar as some participants did not consider the transgender people they lived with as female, and in some instances suggested that they should be located in halls within prisons of their birth sex (in this instance located in male halls). These views are reflective of wider prejudices within society

And apparently Mathew Maycock unfortunate name for such research concludes that female prisoner’s concern about being housed with trans women is whether they previously knew a trans person or not viz … participants who had limited prior experience of transgender people tended to be less accepting

This seeming dismissal of actual concerns cited by some of the women about the size and male appearance of some trans women prisoners and his framing female prisoners views as prejudiced might provide an indication of the author’s general position.

@Artichokeleaves

Gosh I'm surprised. Are you surprised? I was surprised.

As for 'not much reported' - we know that many women's reports are denied, not recorded, lost, eaten by the Welsh Govt's dog..... great lengths are gone to to avoid recording because the evidence is really not wanted. There are MNetters who have attended a formal meeting to discuss concerns who then experienced those who led the meeting denying it had ever taken place or any woman had ever raised a concern with them.

So pull the other one, it's got bloody bells on it.

I don't know about you, but I'm surprised.

This researcher’s apparent lack of sensitivity towards female victims of male violence and male privilege and control speaks volumes when he states This raises several questions around why there is such a diversity of views and what influence prison as a social space has on these views.. FGS. It really isn’t rocket science. Especially when his respondents are telling him why pretty bloody clearly.

For Freya, this resulted in feelings of vulnerability shaped by her views of the bodies of the transgender women she lived with in custody, bodies with different strengths in what could sometimes be a violent environment

Why should women who have experienced male violence have to live alongside natal male prisoners even if some female prisoners say they’re okay with it? That ought to be the bigger question.

Another thing to consider is that women who go to prison tend to have short sentences because they are incarcerated for minor crimes such as non-payment of fines.

Male people who go to prison tend to have much longer sentences. So a single transwoman in prison could make a disproportionate number number of women feel extremely uncomfortable.

I can't tell you how much i'm surprised

@BlueberryCheezecake

Is there any actual evidence of trans prisoners switching gender when released? Any concrete examples of this happening? Because all we have here is the anecdotal presumption of one female prisoner which is being promoted as fact by the headline.

All that appears to be necessary for a male to be housed in the female prison is for that one male prisoner to say they are a woman and we’re expected to accept it as fact.

participants who had limited prior experience of transgender people tended to be less accepting

FFS has he listened to any women, I have plenty of experience with transwomen, each experience has left me less likely to accept them in womens spaces. I started as an ally