Trans prisoners ‘switch gender again’ once freed from women’s units

[NutellaEllaElla]

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Choice quotes:
"On Christmas Eve, Scotland’s prison population stood at 7,435, with only 259 listed as women. A total of 15 prisoners were trans, 12 of them trans women and three trans men. It is understood that all are currently held in female units as previous experience of trans men in the male estate had caused tensions."

"In England and Wales there have been a small number of incidents of violence and sexual violence involving female prisoners being attacked by trans prisoners....The study by Dr Matthew Maycock of Dundee University’s school of education and social work turned up no such disturbing behaviour in Scotland, with only some discomfort about very limited consensual sexual activity.

One Scottish Prison Service (SPS) source said: “There have been incidents, but very minor. No one can say for certain that nothing significant has happened, but if it has none has been reported.”

However, Maycock’s report did identify fears among female inmates of predatory behaviour by some trans prisoners, with one suggesting “the transitions of transgender people might be an attempt by paedophiles or other sex offenders to access cis-women in the female prison estate”.

Another woman told of a transwoman prisoner in her work party whose views “were totally wrong. He wanted to be in this hall because he wanted to have sex with loads of lassies.”

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

So transwomen are women but transmen are also women… interesting

I had an epiphany while up in the night breastfeeding regarding this.

This absolutely proves that women are just what men say we are. That’s our definition. We are non-men. Any human that doesn’t make the cut of being a “proper man” is a woman. Women, transwomen, transmen.

@CheeseMmmm

' senior SPS source said risk assessments are conducted before offenders born male and identifying as female are allowed into the female estate, and *the validity of their claims is tested*. “It is not, as some think, automatic on request,” the source said.'

Not heard that said before by prison peeps commenting on this topic.

Sounds like drivel to me. How would they assess whether invisible feelings are genuine?

He really should be pressed to give more info on that point...

Quite.

Particularly as investigation by women's rights groups into this risk assessment process and the panels carefully considering each male person's case for entry discovered that the risk being assessed was exclusively to the male person . Ie would the TW be exposed to transphobia or harm from women prisoners. There was no consideration or representation of the women prisoners as stake holders, their needs and their vulnerabilities at all. You'd think they were just bits of furniture.

Not to mention the Downview unit.

• presenting issue, TW too risky and dangerous to be in the female estate but wishing to be (one has to assume risk to females/ prison staff and prison situation)

• unit provided in the female estate so they could be there, in the estate, but with separate sleeping/washing facilities and distance, so some but limited contact with female prisoners

• TW in question kicked off and raised a legal case against this segregation

• TW got their way and were put full in female estate anyway, regardless of risk to female prisoners. Expensive unit now a white elephant.

Dichotomy never mentioned: TW wish to be in female estate to have identity recognised and be with other women. However they are very clear indeed that women and TW are not the same thing and they want to be with women, not other TW.

Women however are repeatedly scolded that there is no difference hence having male people forcibly inflicted on them with their consent being irrelevant.

This is a male supremacist policy involving a supposed legal right of access to females. While insisting that sex isn't a thing. It's beyond batshit.

I would actually be interested to know if a non-trans male without a GRC from the male prison estate exerted his equal legal right to be living, sleeping and showering among females if he so wished, what the outcome would be. Because I strongly suspect that he could prove a case of discrimination, and being treated less favourably than other males.

Yes, @artichokeleaves, I was thinking that the other day. If transwomen are women, what's the problem with co-locating all the transwomen? I can see issues with distance from home, small units being expensive to run, and a limited regime, but if transwomen are women, surely they would be content in principle?

@CheeseMmmm

' senior SPS source said risk assessments are conducted before offenders born male and identifying as female are allowed into the female estate, and *the validity of their claims is tested*. “It is not, as some think, automatic on request,” the source said.'

Not heard that said before by prison peeps commenting on this topic.

Sounds like drivel to me. How would they assess whether invisible feelings are genuine?

He really should be pressed to give more info on that point...

I think you'll find that some very special trans people are granted the privilege of deciding which prisoners are tru trans and who aren't. The safety and rights of women don't appear anywhere in these very special meetings. Look at the truly awful experiences of another protected characteristic (pregnant women) in prisons: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-58646499

and marvel at how yet another institution for vulnerable women centres men again, enabled by self centred activists operating without democratic scrutiny.

It is male supremacism. Plain and simple.

I'm shocked that criminals would lie and deceive in prison! I thought we were meant to unconditionally believe them.

@Namechangeforthis88

Yes, *@artichokeleaves*, I was thinking that the other day. If transwomen are women, what's the problem with co-locating all the transwomen? I can see issues with distance from home, small units being expensive to run, and a limited regime, but if transwomen are women, surely they would be content in principle?

Funnily enough, no:

discovery.dundee.ac.uk/en/publications/i-want-the-male-and-the-female-wings-i-dont-want-a-special-trans-

I'm another one who is shocked that male criminals are taking advantage of the idiotic Scottish prison system. Shocked.

Also there is the non-binary issue:

'I think there should be a separate wing within
a prison, for people who want to identify as
non-binary, but they can still have access to
the mainstream'

We're gonna need a bigger boat ...

Imagine criminals lying...or manipulative sex offenders lying so they can get access to their chosen victims? Who'd have thought it possible...

I read the article and there are two reasons trans women prisoners do not want to be imprisoned with other trans women. 1) they don’t like each other very much. They report not getting on with other trans women and finding them hard to live with. 2) they complain that in an all trans women unit they wouldn’t be able to “copy” real women to learn how to live as a woman. They want to live with real women to be socialised properly. They worry that living with trans women they wouldn’t pick up gender appropriate behaviours.

They really don’t seem to believe that trans women are women!

@BlueberryCheezecake

Is there any actual evidence of trans prisoners switching gender when released? Any concrete examples of this happening? Because all we have here is the anecdotal presumption of one female prisoner which is being promoted as fact by the headline.

So just diverting attention from the 6% who definitely are trans in the womens estate? No comment on those?

And I just want to add
No shit sherlock to this.

gender appropriate behaviours

I'm sure we could probably supply some kind of manual.

Here it is:

Manual for Living As A Woman:

Shut up and Be Kind.

The End.

Weren’t we told last year sometime on one of these threads that male prisoners in female estates should also receive make up etc while they were there?

From a male poster, of course.

@ArabellaScott

Here it is:

Manual for Living As A Woman:

Shut up and Be Kind.

The End.

Where 'be kind' means in fact 'do what male people want'

@WeeBisom

I read the article and there are two reasons trans women prisoners do not want to be imprisoned with other trans women. 1) they don’t like each other very much. They report not getting on with other trans women and finding them hard to live with. 2) they complain that in an all trans women unit they wouldn’t be able to “copy” real women to learn how to live as a woman. They want to live with real women to be socialised properly. They worry that living with trans women they wouldn’t pick up gender appropriate behaviours.

They really don’t seem to believe that trans women are women!

And yet how often are women told on FWR that they pass unseen, no one would know, there's no difference or reason for women to see themselves as different to TW.

Isn't it funny how there's always one rule for biological males that works to their advantage, but those biological males set a different rule for biological females which also works to the male people's advantage?

With no more explanation as to why female people should sit still for this than 'be kind' (to male people).

Not to mention why are female prisoners seen as a education resource for males? They're not in prison to act as service animals for others.

This is like using the quiet girl in the classroom to sit next to a behaviourally challenged boy to help others manage his behaviour, regardless of the impact on her and her learning opportunities. Fuck that.

TW are in female prisons due to problems with male violence.
TM are in female prisons due to problems with male violence.

I'm going to get a fucking voice recording of 'male violence is not down to women to fix'

There is a MNetter who has DSD and has posted here sharing their anecdotal experience of being in a male prison, under a male identity, although being biologically female. They explained that their entire sentence was managed without other prisoners being aware, including guards ensuring that they were able to shower separately and managing need for sanpro, using strategies for vulnerable prisoners. Their opinion was that TW would be absolutely able to be kept safe within the male estate and current systems as they were.

If the issue was actually male violence, the Downview unit would have been acceptable. The sought resource is not a safe space. The sought resource is biologically female humans.

So what can we do about this, realistically? I would write to someone but my MP(‘s assistant?) just bins my letters. Protest outside a prison? The MOJ?

It’s so, so cruel and unfair. It’s a ridiculous policy and it is so obvious that male criminals would take advantage of it. Obviously genuine trans people need to be protected, but if a sadistic rapist or murderer suddenly claims he feels female after sentencing, he’s very obviously not trans and he will be fine to go to the men’s estate. Female prisoners on the other hand will likely not be fine having to be locked up with him. What about their safety and mental health?

@Artichokeleaves

There is a MNetter who has DSD and has posted here sharing their anecdotal experience of being in a male prison, under a male identity, although being biologically female. They explained that their entire sentence was managed without other prisoners being aware, including guards ensuring that they were able to shower separately and managing need for sanpro, using strategies for vulnerable prisoners. Their opinion was that TW would be absolutely able to be kept safe within the male estate and current systems as they were.

If the issue was actually male violence, the Downview unit would have been acceptable. The sought resource is not a safe space. The sought resource is biologically female humans.

That's really interesting. I didn't see that thread, regrettably.

TW wanting to be in female prisons is about having power over women, a typically male trait.

@manatsu

So what can we do about this, realistically? I would write to someone but my MP(‘s assistant?) just bins my letters. Protest outside a prison? The MOJ?

It’s so, so cruel and unfair. It’s a ridiculous policy and it is so obvious that male criminals would take advantage of it. Obviously genuine trans people need to be protected, but if a sadistic rapist or murderer suddenly claims he feels female after sentencing, he’s very obviously not trans and he will be fine to go to the men’s estate. Female prisoners on the other hand will likely not be fine having to be locked up with him. What about their safety and mental health?

The MOJ don't care, as evidenced by the recent judicial review. The judge in that case has basically admitted that it will take many individual challenges of the policy, by the women affected, to make any change. It doesn't seem to matter that this will constitute many instances of women being traumatised.

I am continuing to write to my representatives. I use www.writetothem.com to see who all your representatives are, not just your MP.