Page 6 | To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

Blackbird1234 · 2021-12-30T18:29:38+00:00

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

sheroku · 30/12/2021 20:07

I once had a conversation with a genuine volunteer surrogate who was doing it because she loved being pregnant and giving "the most incredible gift" (or so she claimed). She said she would only agree to it if the couple were willing for her to act as a kind of aunt figure as she felt it was morally wrong for a child to have no relationship with the woman who gave birth to her/him. From what I've seen, maintaining that relationship with the surrogate seems quite rare and is clearly to the detriment of the child.

JKR1 · 30/12/2021 20:10

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LostForIdeas · 30/12/2021 20:11

@Couchbettato I think that goes without saying!

What I was pointing out earlier on is what is the impact of the genetic mother on the baby?
We know that children who are born for donor egg or donor sperm often have a strong wish to know more about their genetic parent. We know there are often some major discoveries such ‘oh this person has this maneurism/that taste’ etc….
It’s not possible to say that there isn’t a genetic link to the baby with the genetic mother.

That doesn’t mean that there is no link with the woman who carried the baby!

But it makes me wonder what is, for the baby and then child, the most important thing?? Has there been any studies around that, maybe from children who were born via egg donor?

RepentMotherfucker · 30/12/2021 20:12

@Oneforthemoneytwo

I know someone who was a surrogate. She is a professional woman with a husband and 3 of her own children. She had absolutely no financial need to be a surrogate and she put herself forward after reading about someone who couldn’t get pregnant. The egg and sperm were from the couple she was surrogate for. It was straightforward and successful: she has no regrets at all: it was simply something she says she had always wanted to do,

Can you pop back when the baby is a bit older (fifteen-ish ought to do it) and let us know how they feel about it?

PurpleDaisies · 30/12/2021 20:13

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twwindow · 30/12/2021 20:16

Completely agree OP it's completely judgemental and none of anyone's business.

I don't go around judging housewives for examples

RepentMotherfucker · 30/12/2021 20:17

@twwindow

Completely agree OP it's completely judgemental and none of anyone's business.

I don't go around judging housewives for examples

Have you RTFT?

ScreamingBeans · 30/12/2021 20:18

@Mama1980

As I mentioned above. Money isn't the main issue here. Its much bigger than that, it's the trauma that is being done to children coldly and calculatingly.

And to women.

Women matter

Pixxie7 · 30/12/2021 20:19

Definitely mixed views, obviously don’t agree to anyone being forced to do it. On the other hand if all parties convent and the baby is going to a childless couple I can’t see the harm. Better than abortion IMO.

ScreamingBeans · 30/12/2021 20:22

@Pixxie7

Definitely mixed views, obviously don’t agree to anyone being forced to do it. On the other hand if all parties convent and the baby is going to a childless couple I can’t see the harm. Better than abortion IMO.

How do you get the baby's consent?

Also what has abortion got to do with it? Surrogacy is actually creating a child who would otherwise not exist.

Of course, abortion from surrogacy is probably more likely than average if the fetus is shown to have an abnormality. Remember that Thai case where the baby-buyers pulled out of the sale because the baby was going to be disabled?

Coyoacan · 30/12/2021 20:22

UnsureAndUnsteady

What you are describing is the process whereby the surrogate mother is subjected to unnecessary treatment to implant the fertilised egg, which seriously elevates the risks involved for mother and baby. This is often combined with the treatment given to the egg donor, who can end up with life-long health problems as a consequence. All of which is done on the frankly appalling idea of stripping the surrogate mother of any rights to claim the baby as her own.

As for the connection between a newborn child and the world it knew in the womb, my dgd only breathed after her birth on hearing her father's voice.

GoGoGretaDoll · 30/12/2021 20:23

@sheroku

We don't allow people to buy babies or buy kidneys. I really don't see how commercial surrogacy is any different. If anything it's worse.

I think there are probably examples you can point to where a woman may have e.g. volunteered to be a surrogate for her sister but even then you have to be careful. I once read a Julie Bindel article which highlighted cases where women had been pressured into doing it by their family and were traumatised by the whole experience.

That was me who first used that example @sheroku and actually I do agree with you. But I also think when people start to consider surrogacy, it's the 'those sisters off the local paper or This Morning' situation that comes into their heads so it's useful to start from there. That said, I personally think the current UK laws are more or less OK - though I suspect they are being broken or bent right, left and centre and don't even touch the sides of surrogacy from abroad.

Garriet · 30/12/2021 20:23

@Dozer

Even UK surrogacy often involves quite high ‘expenses’.

Yes, it’s very easy to manipulate bills to be recorded as expenses. Tens of thousands of pounds. I’ve seen it happen personally (I work within the family court systems).

For me there are numerous issues.

I’ve never seen a rich surrogate. Even those who say it’s altruistic are claiming many thousands in expenses in the U.K., and none of them are wealthy.

Increased physical risks in pregnancy for women carrying donor eggs.

Increased risks to mental health of the surrogate.

Trauma of separation at birth for the baby, who has no say in any of it.

Full disclosure: I’m infertile. A close friend of mine offered to carry a child for me. I love her and I appreciated the love she showed in making such a selfless offer. I thanked her profusely. I said no.

Clymene · 30/12/2021 20:23

[quote LostForIdeas]@Couchbettato I think that goes without saying!

What I was pointing out earlier on is what is the impact of the genetic mother on the baby?
We know that children who are born for donor egg or donor sperm often have a strong wish to know more about their genetic parent. We know there are often some major discoveries such ‘oh this person has this maneurism/that taste’ etc….
It’s not possible to say that there isn’t a genetic link to the baby with the genetic mother.

That doesn’t mean that there is no link with the woman who carried the baby!

But it makes me wonder what is, for the baby and then child, the most important thing?? Has there been any studies around that, maybe from children who were born via egg donor?[/quote]
I think children absolutely need to know their genetic origins. I fundamentally disagree with using anonymous donor gametes or (worse) lying about the use of donor gametes.

As far as I know, a surrogate mother in the U.K. must use the gametes of at least one genetic parent.

Soontobe60 · 30/12/2021 20:25

@Oneforthemoneytwo

I know someone who was a surrogate. She is a professional woman with a husband and 3 of her own children. She had absolutely no financial need to be a surrogate and she put herself forward after reading about someone who couldn’t get pregnant. The egg and sperm were from the couple she was surrogate for. It was straightforward and successful: she has no regrets at all: it was simply something she says she had always wanted to do,

So she was ticking something off her bucket list? Most of us are happy with a tattoo or a holiday in Thailand.

Sofawithoutstuffing · 30/12/2021 20:27

[quote LostForIdeas]@Oneforthemoneytwo I know someone who did that too.
Had her own business, two dcs of her own and was passionate about supporting women/pregnant women
She saw surrogacy as a way to support another woman and to give a beautiful gift.[/quote]
But what about the risk of leaving her existing children without a mother? Surrogacy is a riskier process than a normal pregnancy. There was the recent death of Michelle Reaves in the USA where the mother of two, who was acting as a surrogate for another family, died during childbirth. And the from her husband following her death.

NynaeveSedai · 30/12/2021 20:36

maintaining that relationship with the surrogate seems quite rare and is clearly to the detriment of the child.

Why would it be detrimental to the child to maintain a relationship with their birth mother?

Original poster

Blackbird1234 · 30/12/2021 20:40

It seems that there is somewhat of a scale - sister or loved one or selfless individual gifting a baby to someone who can't have one is mostly seen as ok, but wealthy couple/paedo essentially forcing a poor woman into it is very much not ok. So then we shouldn't actually judge someone without having all the facts. Which leads me to my next question - I saw a few posts condemning Tom Daley as a terrible person as he has (is having?) a child through surrogacy. Do we know the facts of that and where his situation is on the scale?

OP posts:

Brusca · 30/12/2021 20:45

Where are you getting the idea of a scale?

RepentMotherfucker · 30/12/2021 20:45

@Blackbird1234

It seems that there is somewhat of a scale - sister or loved one or selfless individual gifting a baby to someone who can't have one is mostly seen as ok, but wealthy couple/paedo essentially forcing a poor woman into it is very much not ok. So then we shouldn't actually judge someone without having all the facts. Which leads me to my next question - I saw a few posts condemning Tom Daley as a terrible person as he has (is having?) a child through surrogacy. Do we know the facts of that and where his situation is on the scale?

I don't see a scale. I see lots of people saying it's absolutely wrong to create a baby to deliberately remove it from its mother.

Which it is.

NynaeveSedai · 30/12/2021 20:46

Tom Daley and husband buy their babies from surrogates in the states I believe where paying vulnerable women to endanger themselves for pay and sell babies is legal.
Also his husband calls women TERFs on the internet which is a bit Rich from a man who exploits female reproductive labour to make his family which is an added flavour of ick.

Original poster

Blackbird1234 · 30/12/2021 20:48

I'm saying a scale as there seems to be one on this thread, with some saying its absolutely awful in all circumstances and others saying it's ok in some circumstances. Not talking about in reality, just in reference to this thread.

@NynaeveSedai Do we know for a fact that the woman they are having the baby from is vulnerable?

OP posts:

Dozer · 30/12/2021 20:49

Tom Daley and his husband paid a woman to undergo fertility treatment and have a DC with a sperm from one of them and a donor egg. Commercial surrogacy.

V unethical. As outlined by PPs, various risks to the mother and DC.

sheroku · 30/12/2021 20:50

I don't see a scale. I see lots of people saying it's absolutely wrong to create a baby to deliberately remove it from its mother.

Exactly. Apart from in the vanishingly rare examples of sisters or best friends as surrogates who then go on to have a relationship with the child then I think it's wrong.

EarthSight · 30/12/2021 20:52

Given how much misogyny that women still experience in the world, given how many men still view women as lesser beings who are simply support humans for their domestic or reproductive needs, the last thing we should be promoting is the idea that women's bodies are for sale, that young women are simply ovens for hire.

It might be temporality advantageous for individuals, but bad overall for women's rights and that affects all of us.