To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

[Blackbird1234]

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

@ontana

Yeah that's why loads of really wealthy women sign up for it out of pure altruism

I did. Husband and I both higher rate tax payers (he's a co director and I'm an equity partner) and I've carried two babies for our friends who couldn't carry - their eggs and sperm.

I'm still Involved in the surrogacy world, and it's not all 'women on benefits' being rented by gay celebs.

As it happens @NotBadConsidering I do !

Is this the one you were thinking of?

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2017/11/20390/

It's truly shocking what goes on in the USA, with surrogate mothers handing over all medical decisions to the commissioning parents, ie completely giving up her bodily autonomy. For instance some CP's are specifying that they do not want their surrogate mother to be vaccinated against coronavirus. And we know that pregnant women who contract coronavirus are at high risk of serious complications. The details are scant as most of these contracts involve a non disclosure agreement but there was a recent report of the death of a surrogate mother which seems to have been associated with coronavirus. I have no idea if she was vaccinated or not, and perhaps she would still have come to harm even if she hadn't been pregnant but maybe not.

Thanks @Helleofabore and same to you!

@Helleofabore

So then going back to what we talking about before regarding women bring kids in to the world where the dad has said he wants nothing to do with the child…

Does that father- child not matter?….

Your whatsboutery is getting repetitive.

The ideal situation is that the child has both parents. Of course it is. But, of course, that family configuration may not be available. So, again, a child that is already born has needs that is very different to one deliberately created for a specific purpose- that of being removed from its mother at birth.

We can go round and round but the facts will still be that they are different situations. BOTH will likely have effects on the child’s mental health, but in different ways.

This is being studied now and the indications are that even children from IVF have issues that they have to work through. Those children, now older adults are talking about it via social media and at seminars.

Or don’t their views count?

You’re on repeat yourself.

I’m not saying I agree with surrogacy as such. I’m on the fence and don’t really have an opinion either way, unlike you.

I don’t disagree with everything you say but I think you keep referring back to the mother that you don’t see fathers as in integral part of a child’s life and I think that can be damaging to children too.

Who am I to judge someone that wants to donate their eggs to help others?

Who on this thread has ‘judged’ anyone who has donated their eggs?

I most certainly judge the system and those allowing women to be exploited (for whatever reason). I most certainly judge the clinics and the media who advertise to young women using emotive imagery and language and financial incentive for those women to undergo high risk procedures.

And yes, I certainly judge those who handwave it away after knowing what is happening. And I would think less of someone who used a donor egg sourced in this fashion.

As I said clearly above, if a woman has left over eggs from their own procedure and is not coerced in any way donates their eggs, then ok.

That’s the one. Lots of horrors but I’ve always remembered this:

If the surrogate is in her second or third trimester of pregnancy and in the event that medical life support equipment is required to preserve and maintain the life of the Surrogate and if requested by the Intended Parents, the Surrogate and her husband agree that the Surrogate’s life will be sustained with life support equipment for a period to achieve viability of the fetus taking into account the best interests and well-being of the fetus . . . The Intended Parents will make the decision with regard to how long the life support should be continued prior to the birth of the Child taking into account the obstetrician or perinatologist’s recommendation and the desires of the family of the Surrogate. The Surrogate’s husband, or her next of kin, is solely responsible for determining the time at which life support treatment will be discontinued following the birth of the Child.

Literally being kept alive to be an incubator. Horrific.

You’re on repeat yourself.

Because you keep asking the same questions or continuing to ‘Whatabout’. But I am out now. I need to sleep

One last one for OP that I had forgotten about.
The tragic case of little Bridgett who was commissioned in Ukraine by American baby buyers (let's not suggest these people are parents) and who was born prematurely and with health problems so they rejected her and have refused to take any sort of responsibility for her.
She is undoubtedly one of many.

It's also worth remembering that the baby brokers in places like Ukraine care no more for commissioning parents than they do for the women gestating babies or the babies that are born. They just want the money. So I do actually have a smidgeon of sympathy (a very tiny smidgeon) for naive people who go there hoping for a baby and who are also exploited.

@crunchermuncher

This is whataboutery again. No one has said it's ok to not have a father! It's crap. But it's not what was being discussed.

Can you genuinely not understand the difference between a baby being removed from a mother at birth, and never knowing their father? Its not a competition - neither is good.

Your argument seems to be 'bad stuff happens, so we shouldn't try to prevent further bad stuff from happening'.

Is that your argument?

Or are you just trying to make this all about men?

Can you genuinely not understand the difference between a baby being removed from a mother at birth, and never knowing their father? Its not a competition - neither is good

I think your point of view is that a mother even if she’s a shit one, is better than a father (a good one) so on that case I don’t agree with this.

To be fair even if there any that are purely altruistic, no one can predict how a pregnancy will go. If the baby will be fine or not, because we already know that is a factor . The consequences and the risks to the mother's body, her own fertility , her health, her mental health. The emotional fall out from changing minds, bonding etc. The ethical decisions when the mum's or baby's life are in danger or they affect eachother's well being. The fallout from those.

Cases of pure altruistic surrogacy are rare, and even then when it goes wrong it can go terribly wrong for everyone involved, but the mother carries the most risks.

I agree. Totally.

You keep talking about the mother figure and the importance of her in the child’s life, so I’m pointing out what the importance of the father figure?
You have conflated mother and mother figure. People are talking about babies days or even hours old being taken from the women that has carried them and birthed them not because of some tragic set of circumstances but by design. People aren't saying gay couples shouldn't adopted because children need a mother figure, they are saying newborns need their mother not a mother figure e.g. a female care giver they need the comfort of the body that is all they have known for 9 months. Even the bloody Magdalene laundries didn't separate the babies from their mothers immediately.

@KimikosNightmare

What another woman wants to do with her body and for what purpose, isn’t really up to me?…

Well you've indicated you are comfortable with prostitution, which is also exploitative and buying a body, but that's a whole other topic.

Says you who thinks IVF full stop should be banded!!!

I think you keep referring back to the mother that you don’t see fathers as in integral part of a child’s life and I think that can be damaging to children too.

FFS. Where have I stated this nonsense. I have clearly stated ideally a child will have both mother and father. But many things shape a family in a child’s life. The point is to not deliberately create a life that will be removed from their mother on birth.

@PleasantBirthday

What a lovely fried you are (but this doesn’t suit the narrative of many on here 🙄)

Absolutely horrendous isn't it @NotBadConsidering ?
We can at least take comfort (I believe) that such a contract would not be legal in the U.K. and the NHS would never honour it. Although even as I typed these words I find myself wondering if they would give some (unofficial) consideration to the opinions/desires of the commissioning parents whereas I would say they had no place in an intensive care unit with all communication and medical decisions to be discussed and agreed with the pregnant woman's next of kin only.

@PatriotCanes

Because think of all the children who were adopted in the 1950s, 1960s and1970s and who have suffered because of the way it was handled because we didn't know better at the time.

Because think of all the children born from sperm donation in the 1970s and 1980s and who have suffered because of the way it was handled because we didn't know better at the time.

We know now children who are removed from their mothers at birth suffer. We know now children who do not know about their biological/genetic history suffer. We know selling children is wrong. And yet surrogacy is suddenly absolutely fine and doesn't harm the children involved at all?

This.

You won't see a Hollywood star be a surrogate. They only benefit from them.

Think about why that is.

Its the commodification of children to order - with the physical risks to them. Thats born by a woman who is less well off.

There is no such thing as altruistic surrogacy either. Its emotive and exploitative even when someone does it for a friend or family member.

@Helleofabore

You’re on repeat yourself.

Because you keep asking the same questions or continuing to ‘Whatabout’. But I am out now. I need to sleep

You just like hearing the sound of your voice! --keyboard--

@Runningupthecurtains

You keep talking about the mother figure and the importance of her in the child’s life, so I’m pointing out what the importance of the father figure? You have conflated mother and mother figure. People are talking about babies days or even hours old being taken from the women that has carried them and birthed them not because of some tragic set of circumstances but by design. People aren't saying gay couples shouldn't adopted because children need a mother figure, they are saying newborns need their mother not a mother figure e.g. a female care giver they need the comfort of the body that is all they have known for 9 months. Even the bloody Magdalene laundries didn't separate the babies from their mothers immediately.

But if surrogate wants to do this then they will.. they’re obvious ‘allowed’ so it’s not up to me to decide what’s right or wrong

@FannyCann

Absolutely horrendous isn't it *@NotBadConsidering* ? We can at least take comfort (I believe) that such a contract would not be legal in the U.K. and the NHS would never honour it. Although even as I typed these words I find myself wondering if they would give some (unofficial) consideration to the opinions/desires of the commissioning parents whereas I would say they had no place in an intensive care unit with all communication and medical decisions to be discussed and agreed with the pregnant woman's next of kin only.

And therein lies the issue. As soon as you say it’s okay you have to legislate it. And as soon as you legislate it you have to consider all outcomes. And once you do that, before you know it, you’re legalising a woman being kept alive purely to incubate a fetus to a viable gestation. It’s so utterly grim I can’t fathom how anyone can be okay with it.

No. Because I know that for every post I and others write in reply to your inane whataboutery, thousands of others will read over the coming months.

Some may have the same questions as you and may read our answers and think to go and do their own research and form their own opinions. That is how MN feminist board works.

I also know that other, more knowledgeable, people or those who have some personal experience to answer you will likely come along and give you even better answers than I ever could.

But, in case they don’t, I think you have had plenty of people give your repeated questions time and effort.

The responses to the "whataboutery" have been very informative.

@Helleofabore

No. Because I know that for every post I and others write in reply to your inane whataboutery, thousands of others will read over the coming months.

Some may have the same questions as you and may read our answers and think to go and do their own research and form their own opinions. That is how MN feminist board works.

I also know that other, more knowledgeable, people or those who have some personal experience to answer you will likely come along and give you even better answers than I ever could.

But, in case they don’t, I think you have had plenty of people give your repeated questions time and effort.

Well there has been a last one explaining everything was great for her and she was a surrogate twice!

So everyone is entitled to their opinions and I recon hers is more valid than the average persons on here, who hasn’t been through it.

But if surrogate wants to do this then they will.. they’re obvious ‘allowed’ so it’s not up to me to decide what’s right or wrong but in many countries surrogacy isn't allowed, in the UK it is restricted. Some people want more restrictions (i.e. it being completely banned) other people want the rules relaxing (i.e. commercial surrogacy beging allowed). The OP has in the space of a few hours gone from thinking surrogacy was a lovely kind fluffy thing that produces only winners (intended parents get a baby, baby gets loving parents, surrogate get warm smushy feelings from doing a good thing) to understanding that it's rarely grinning sisters with turkey basters but much more complex and full of potential pitfalls when things don't go to plan. People do lots of things which aren't ideal and as a society we decide which are not ideal but legal, which are not ideal and illegal and which are not ideal but allowed within certain circumstances. No one is asking you personally to decide.

@KimikosNightmare

The responses to the "whataboutery" have been very informative.

Lucky for you no one that’s had ivf seem your extreme views….

I honestly don't care if they have. This thread is about surrogacy- you're the one bringing IVF and (bizarrely)prostitution into it.

I note you haven't even attempted to consider why countries such as Iceland etc have completely banned surrogacy.