To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

[Blackbird1234]

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

@Helleofabore

And adopted children have their unique issues.

However they are not deliberately created to fulfill someone’s wishes for a family. This is a thread about surrogacy. People being created specifically to order.

And gestated in woman’s body who is giving that person away.

And maybe even putting a second woman’s life at risk if a donor egg is used.

Commodification of a child, and at least one woman.

I don't want to derail , but while not created to order, in some poor countries (or with no/hard to get abortions) babies for adoption are a product for sale too. Discussions like this one looks like us, that one has your eyebrows, this one is cute, that one's mother should've known better, this one's mother is this and that etc are had and that's how decisions are made. Some palms are greased and voila you've got a baby that should fit your needs.Thrift store style, plenty of product, low demand,no returns. I'm one of those babies.

@OhHolyJesus

Apologies, I had a quick look back at that thread and I replied twice but I was referring to fact I disagree that all prostitution is coerced.

So then going back to what we talking about before regarding women bring kids in to the world where the dad has said he wants nothing to do with the child…

Does that father- child not matter?….

Your whatsboutery is getting repetitive.

The ideal situation is that the child has both parents. Of course it is. But, of course, that family configuration may not be available. So, again, a child that is already born has needs that is very different to one deliberately created for a specific purpose- that of being removed from its mother at birth.

We can go round and round but the facts will still be that they are different situations. BOTH will likely have effects on the child’s mental health, but in different ways.

This is being studied now and the indications are that even children from IVF have issues that they have to work through. Those children, now older adults are talking about it via social media and at seminars.

Or don’t their views count?

@NotBadConsidering

Starcup

You haven’t answered how you propose to create an adequate framework given the examples I provided even in the circumstances of a woman who isn’t remotely coerced.

Yes your post was very well written and thoughtful but that’s way beyond my realm of capabilities, even more so at this time of night 😉

I don’t disagree with a lot of what you say btw.

ldontWanna

And here is an account from a woman who was an altruistic surrogate mother for very good friends. It all went horribly wrong and they dropped her once they had the babies. She is left with PTSD and birth injuries.

You will find several other interesting articles on the Nordic Model Now website which will explain the issues further.

nordicmodelnow.org/2020/01/29/i-was-an-altruistic-surrogate-and-am-now-against-all-surrogacy/

Good luck on your journey of learning OP and well done for asking.

@Helleofabore

Its relevant because people could pass judgment on many a set of imperfect circumstances and people feel uncomfortable about questions regarding their own choices.

So you are personally comfortable putting at least one woman’s life at risk to produce a child to order?

And you feel all your comparisons of children being brought into the world in less than ideal situations, where they have not been ‘ordered’ for purpose are relevant?

But that’s not me making the decision is it. Would I be a surrogate? He’ll no!

What another woman wants to do with her body and for what purpose, isn’t really up to me?…

And thank you Fanny and ohholy for the thoughtful links and posts.

@Helleofabore

Ah so you disagree with a heterosexual couple using donor eggs for IVF too?…..

Do you agree that people should be incentivised to donate a body part of that donation needs a treatment of drugs to hyperstimulate that body part to performing at a dangerous rate, making just the treatment alone risky? Let alone the procedure?

You comfortable with this? And if you then discovered that the donor had complications that limited their life, left them in a vegetative state or unable to then have their own children… you comfortable with that?

No. I don’t agree with the incentivised production of donor eggs. If a woman has eggs frozen and no longer wants them, that is a different matter if there is absolutely no coercion (including family pressure, guilt or financial benefit) in that donation.

You might be happy to sacrifice someone’s health for your own gain, but I certainly am not. But please, do crack on trying to make me feel shame for not wanting to put another woman at risk, even if she wants to.

Well no I wouldn’t sacrifice anyone’s life for my own gain, as I’ve had 2 children and I’m very fortunate enough to have been able to need no assistance at all. I appreciate that’s not the case for everyone.

Who am I to judge someone that wants to donate their eggs to help others?

Who am I to say the receiver of the donor eggs is selfish for receiving them?

It’s nothing to do with me

FannyCann OhHolyJesus

Do either of you have the article in which a lawyer outlines the contract in California that specified that should the mother end up on life support the intended parents would get to decide on continuing or not? I know it’s been posted before, I just can’t find it.

What another woman wants to do with her body and for what purpose, isn’t really up to me?…

So you are comfortable advocating for women to exploited though. That women are put into this predicament because why? They need money? They feel guilt / family pressure / have a mental health issue / whatever reason.

Just how many purely altruistic surrogacies do you think occur? How many friends and family will swear they are not pressured but know that their will be damage to their relationships if they don’t do it?

You seem to be convinced that

RTFT!

Sorry. Convinced that the vast majority of women are doing this altruistically.

Why?

Sorry Hellofabore that wasn't at you! Posts crossed.

@newroundhere

If a man is clear that he under no circumstances wants to have any involvement with a child that he might co-create then I respectfully suggest that he may want to abstain from having sex. It's not a woman's job to "fix it" for him after the fact.

I agree he’s a prick for happily having sec then running off but the main pony is the child will grown up without a father and that seems to be perfectly acceptable.

That’s not an ideal situation either as if it’s about the child and only about the best interests of the child, then it’s not great start.

@Helleofabore

starcup

You are again conflating adoption with surrogacy.

Adoption means the child has been left in a situation where they are no longer being able to be cared for by the child’s mother. Or father. Therefore, the best family situation needs to be found that is available. Sometimes for the unique needs of that child. Already born.

Nothing to do with surrogacy unless the purchasers have abandoned the sale. Which happens. If the birth mother cannot care for the child, only then does it become like adoption.

You keep talking about the mother figure and the importance of her in the child’s life, so I’m pointing out what the importance of the father figure?

Who am I to judge someone that wants to donate their eggs to help others?

Who am I to say the receiver of the donor eggs is selfish for receiving them?

It’s nothing to do with me

It seems you are not well informed about the risks. Not well informed about the effect on the child.

Yet you do seem keen to shame others who have made the effort to read cases and law. There are women on this thread who are very well informed and actively campaigning for law reform. Not me. But I have read quite a bit of the information they are providing and have provided.

If you are genuinely interested in knowing more, go and read the links.

This is whataboutery again. No one has said it's ok to not have a father! It's crap. But it's not what was being discussed.

Can you genuinely not understand the difference between a baby being removed from a mother at birth, and never knowing their father? Its not a competition - neither is good.

Your argument seems to be 'bad stuff happens, so we shouldn't try to prevent further bad stuff from happening'.

Is that your argument?

Or are you just trying to make this all about men?

You keep talking about the mother figure and the importance of her in the child’s life, so I’m pointing out what the importance of the father figure?

Whatabout. Whatabout.

What don’t you understand about the difference of a child deliberately created for separation from the mother from birth to making the best of the family situation a child is born into?

What another woman wants to do with her body and for what purpose, isn’t really up to me?…

Well you've indicated you are comfortable with prostitution, which is also exploitative and buying a body, but that's a whole other topic.

This is like trying to play chess with a pigeon....

@crunchermuncher

Sorry Hellofabore that wasn't at you! Posts crossed.

I gathered that.

For clarity, my post was finishing the sentence when I pressed too early.

@KimikosNightmare

Starcup

NameChange74567

The baby will still want it's mother

So what happens if 2 men adopt a baby? Should that no be allowed as they need a mum?

Do you really not understand the difference between surrogacy and adoption? Well clearly you don't or you wouldn't have asked that question.

What are you talking about? The point is men are capable of caring for children too and can do it better than women in some cases.

Gay couples are allowed to adopt kids as having a stable loving environment with 2 men is seen as better than leaving with an incapable birth mother that can’t look after it.

To answer your previous question, lots of people will agree with you regarding surrogacy but not with your extreme views that women shouldn’t be offered IVF 😮🤷‍♀️

It also seems that anything that a woman agrees to, even if it is coerced, is ok. As long as it is not me!!!

@Helleofabore

What another woman wants to do with her body and for what purpose, isn’t really up to me?…

So you are comfortable advocating for women to exploited though. That women are put into this predicament because why? They need money? They feel guilt / family pressure / have a mental health issue / whatever reason.

Just how many purely altruistic surrogacies do you think occur? How many friends and family will swear they are not pressured but know that their will be damage to their relationships if they don’t do it?

You seem to be convinced that

To be fair even if there any that are purely altruistic, no one can predict how a pregnancy will go. If the baby will be fine or not, because we already know that is a factor . The consequences and the risks to the mother's body, her own fertility , her health, her mental health. The emotional fall out from changing minds, bonding etc. The ethical decisions when the mum's or baby's life are in danger or they affect eachother's well being. The fallout from those.

Cases of pure altruistic surrogacy are rare, and even then when it goes wrong it can go terribly wrong for everyone involved, but the mother carries the most risks.