To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

[Blackbird1234]

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

I don't think the outraged talk about changing the law in the UK was about money not changing hands

Or is it all about altruistic friends? That would be so good.

@RepentMotherfucker

But you don’t get to decide because it’s not your choice

Commercial surrogacy is illegal in the UK. So I'd say it's definitely not a choice.

I was referring to IVF available on the NHS to a man and a woman! I wouldn’t describe two men as an infertile couple! Obviously it describes them but for obvious reasons

@Starcup

And what about the use of donor eggs when a woman can’t produce her own? Is that inappropriate?

Or when a woman get to 40 and uses a sperm donor? Is that morally questionable?

Your whataboutery is outstanding.

And if you understood the health risks of donor egg stimulation vs wanking into a cup you might understand the significance.

I’d probably be 100% correct to say no male ever had a stroke or lost their ovaries due to wanking into a cup.

However, I can also feel 100% confident that there are numerous instances of young women having strokes and losing their ovaries after ‘donating’ eggs for money. And losing their own fertility before they have ever had their own children.

@Starcup

I think there is a lot of hypocrisy on these topics.

Taking the adults out of the equation for a minute, some believe the child would be born in to a situation they wouldn’t chose and it’s morally wrong.

My question to those that feel sorry for the baby -

What about the women who bring children in to the world when the father has specified he doesn’t want to be involved? Is that not immoral? Bringing a child in to the word whereby they won’t have a relationship with their biological father?

What about those that bring children in to severe poverty, over crammed damp housing?

The point being, if it’s all about the best interests of the child, then half of the people on here will have brought a baby in to the world under less than ideal circumstances.

Back to the adults- some people think you shouldn’t use intervention at all, whether that be for IVF or surrogacy.

But how many of those are happy to use medical interventions when it suits them? If everything should only be ‘natural’ then what about those that requested c-sections, epidurals and so on?

How do they view covid? Do they expect medical intervention to help keep their vulnerable loved ones alive for a bit longer? I bet they view that kind of medical intervention as vital though….

How dare anyone decide an infertile couple shouldn’t be allowed intervention.

Lastly, regarding surrogacy, the concept that a woman is always coerced is laughable. You could say that about any scenario. Some will do it for the money and done be sad they feel they want to do something for someone else.

If we look at the world as a whole, the majority of children are born into circumstances that people on here would not consider adequate. A baby born through surrogacy to a western couple would be in the top couple of percent of the luckiest, most secure, comfortable and wanted children in the world. A guaranteed warm home, two loving parents, an education (until 18, at least!), not married against their will, no conflict, no chance of starvation or future of poverty. Probably their own bedroom and presents multiple times a year, a wide family network and the chance to make friends in one place without having to move.

These are things that not a lot of children can count upon. Personally I think we need to see a lot more adoption rather than surrogacy though--it's horrible to think of the parentless children living on streets or dying of starvation when there are childless people who would do anything to care for them.

I think many women have brought babies in to the world in shit circumstances and they know it and get touchy when it’s brought up.

You can’t have it both ways. Many people want a baby and that’s it, fuck the circumstances surrounding it if I want one I’ll have mentally and bring the child in to crap set of circumstances

Are you pissed?! What on earth are you on about? I don't want anything both ways and neither have I brought any children into the world in shit circumstances

School holidays??

@RepentMotherfucker

But you don’t get to decide because it’s not your choice

Commercial surrogacy is illegal in the UK. So I'd say it's definitely not a choice.

Surrogacy is completely banned in Iceland , Finland, France, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Bulgaria and Spain.

Of course society as a whole should have a say in this.

I was referring to IVF available on the NHS to a man and a woman!

We’re not discussing ivf here. That’s totally different to surrogacy.

@RepentMotherfucker

I think many women have brought babies in to the world in shit circumstances and they know it and get touchy when it’s brought up.

You can’t have it both ways. Many people want a baby and that’s it, fuck the circumstances surrounding it if I want one I’ll have mentally and bring the child in to crap set of circumstances

Are you pissed?! What on earth are you on about? I don't want anything both ways and neither have I brought any children into the world in shit circumstances

School holidays??

...have you read any of the dozens of threads on here today that are literally exactly that situation? Congrats that's not you, you've empirically disproved the point with a sample size of 1

Let’s say for argument’s sake, that the mother is in no way coerced, financially reliant, and genuinely altruistic:

1. at the 12 week scan a serious abnormality is found that may be life limiting. Who decides what to do? What if the intended parents want to abort? Should they be able to impose that will onto the mother? What if she does but they don’t? Should they be able to impose continuing with the pregnancy on the mother? What if it’s not a life limiting finding but something less than perfect. Can the intended parents change their minds? What if it’s not the sex they want?

2. what if the fetus or baby suffers a hypoxic-ischaemic episode either antenatally, perinatally, or postnatally and the baby has a high outcome chance of cerebral palsy? Can the intended parents refuse the baby (as some have)?

3. what if the mother suffers a severe brain injury and is in a vegetative state? Should the intended parents have control over the woman’s life support decisions instead of the woman’s family, to allow them to grow the baby to a viable gestation (actual clause in a California surrogacy agreement)?

4. what if the obstetrician recommends a caesarean but the mother doesn’t want one? Should intended parents be allowed to compel her? What if she refuses and the baby suffers a brain injury? Is she liable for that injury? What if she wants a vaginal delivery and they don’t?

5. what if the mother suffers any complication that leaves her with long term disability? Are the intended parents going to support her for life? Who decides what’s reasonable?

6. what if the pregnancy goes smoothly, the mother has no issues giving up the baby, the intended parents are happy, but in 20 years’ time the child is suffering from the trauma of the circumstances of their birth? Does the child get any protections? Does the child get to know their mother?

7. what if the mother suffers severe postpartum depression or psychosis as a result of the process? What if she dies?

These are just some examples. You cannot create a framework that protects all parties. Someone has to sacrifice something. There are no surrogacies that are 100% successful. There are only those who got through the pregnancy and birth process without major issues and are just desperately hoping the child doesn’t display trauma as they get older.

The baby will still want it's mother.

**Do you mean women who deliberately trick a man into making them pregnant, and possibly dont ever tell the father that the baby even exists? Because yes, that is absolutely immoral. Or do you mean women carrying on with an existing pregnancy even though the father doesn't want anything to do with the baby? Because that's an entirely different scenario.

Either way, "we can't stop some kids from having a shitty start in life, so why does it matter if we actively condone some other kids having a similarly shitty start in life" is clutching at straws as far as arguments go**

These aren’t my personal opinions and generally I’m of the opinion that we all try to do the best with the set of circumstances that we’re born in to and we bring our kids up the best we can.

I do think there is a lot of judgmental posters that don’t agree even with IVF but would be the first to complain if someone passed judgements on their circumstances.

This thread has been really interesting to read! I always felt a little uneasy about surrogacy but couldn't put my finger on why.

I always found it odd to think that in countries where surrogacy is commercialised, if I had a baby and then went round trying to sell it, I'd rightfully get in a lot of trouble. But somehow if the transaction is complete before the baby is conceived then it becomes acceptable?!

I do think there is a lot of judgmental posters that don’t agree even with IVF but would be the first to complain if someone passed judgements on their circumstances.

Who is talking about ivf? The topic is surrogacy.

A baby born through surrogacy to a western couple would be in the top couple of percent of the luckiest, most secure, comfortable and wanted children in the world.

Wanting that child and providing it with the best home in the world does not make that child grow up not wanting the relationship with the person who gave birth to them, and cannot assuage the issues that child may have if they cannot reconcile the fact they feel ‘purchased’ and ‘designed’ for purpose.

You have either discounted any account given by an adult trying to describe their pain when they realise the reason for their existence or you have not listened.

Judgmental nasty thread this is

@twwindow

Judgmental nasty thread this is

How so?

Well argued. Bravo tww

@Helleofabore

A baby born through surrogacy to a western couple would be in the top couple of percent of the luckiest, most secure, comfortable and wanted children in the world.

Wanting that child and providing it with the best home in the world does not make that child grow up not wanting the relationship with the person who gave birth to them, and cannot assuage the issues that child may have if they cannot reconcile the fact they feel ‘purchased’ and ‘designed’ for purpose.

You have either discounted any account given by an adult trying to describe their pain when they realise the reason for their existence or you have not listened.

I know many adopted people, some of whom have greatly struggled with it, others who have virtually zero interest in the issue. I am absolutely not blind to the effect it has on many people and I don't discount that. However it is still a clear fact that an adopted person in the UK who grew up with a good family is still in a far, far better and happier position than the majority of the children born every year.

@Helleofabore

What about the women who bring children in to the world when the father has specified he doesn’t want to be involved? Is that not immoral? Bringing a child in to the word whereby they won’t have a relationship with their biological father?

What are you saying here? That a woman should abort a child if the father doesn’t want that child?

That a single mother is a poor parent? That a mother is immoral to have their child if the father doesn’t want it?

I mean, I don’t see the relevance here at all.

The relationship with the infant is primarily established with the mother. Yes. The father’s voice is also recognised I am sure, but it is the mother who carried that child.

Otherwise, what is the relevance here?

Its relevant because people could pass judgment on many a set of imperfect circumstances and people feel uncomfortable about questions regarding their own choices.

And adopted children have their unique issues.

However they are not deliberately created to fulfill someone’s wishes for a family. This is a thread about surrogacy. People being created specifically to order.

And gestated in woman’s body who is giving that person away.

And maybe even putting a second woman’s life at risk if a donor egg is used.

Commodification of a child, and at least one woman.

**Your whataboutery is outstanding.

And if you understood the health risks of donor egg stimulation vs wanking into a cup you might understand the significance.

I’d probably be 100% correct to say no male ever had a stroke or lost their ovaries due to wanking into a cup.

However, I can also feel 100% confident that there are numerous instances of young women having strokes and losing their ovaries after ‘donating’ eggs for money. And losing their own fertility before they have ever had their own children**

@Helleofabore

Ah so you disagree with a heterosexual couple using donor eggs for IVF too?…..

Remember that Thai case where the baby-buyers pulled out of the sale because the baby was going to be disabled?

Baby Gammy is now 7 his paedophile father died of asbestos and his twin sister doesn't have to have weekly lessons about how she can't be alone with her father anymore. He has Down's syndrome and lives happily with his mother, though they don't live with a lot. She wasn't expecting to be a mother after all. His sister doesn't seem to know about him yet.

In some North African cultures it's customary for siblings to have a baby for their childless sibling. If you read 18th century history that's also not anything unusual either.

Surrogacy is in the Bible too.

sometimes couples seeking fertility services get incentives for donating eggs?!?

You remembered correctly, it's called egg sharing. U.K. Clinics offer discounts for those who join this scheme. You get a letter if your egg results in a live birth. Obviously this can happen regardless of what happens with the eggs for your own IVF.

There was a documentary on the BBC maybe only last year about seemingly unregulated surrogacy in the UK.

Was that the one on BBC 3? I read a review of that. https://stopsurrogacynowuk.org/2021/05/31/surrogacy-in-the-media-a-review-of-bbc-threes-the-surrogates-long-read/

But you don’t get to decide because it’s not your choice

That's exactly why I posted about law reform of U.K. surrogacy laws on the other thread you and I were on Starcup. The laws of the land are for and apply to everyone.

However, I can also feel 100% confident that there are numerous instances of young women having strokes and losing their ovaries after ‘donating’ eggs for money. And losing their own fertility before they have ever had their own children.

As you should - for those interested examples of this, and worse, can be found by watching Eggsploitation on you tube.

Surrogacy is completely banned in Iceland , Finland, France, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Bulgaria and Spain.
And Thailand outlaws commercial surrogacy after Baby Gammy, as does India, though trafficking rings are exposed and investigated. A recent one in Russia followed when a dead baby was found outside an apartment. It was a baby den.

Here is an example of a woman having a baby for her sister in law.

https://www.premiumtimesng.com/regional/ssouth-west/455958-how-belgian-hospital-mistakenly-amputated-cervix-paralysed-two-nigerian-women.html?fbclid=IwAR3CblA92-ZCxrgWWs9WLAJQEFmhFRL6_iN1GCjGYp1cuGGhyp8U-CLvXFo

Its relevant because people could pass judgment on many a set of imperfect circumstances and people feel uncomfortable about questions regarding their own choices.

So you are personally comfortable putting at least one woman’s life at risk to produce a child to order?

And you feel all your comparisons of children being brought into the world in less than ideal situations, where they have not been ‘ordered’ for purpose are relevant?

**If we look at the world as a whole, the majority of children are born into circumstances that people on here would not consider adequate. A baby born through surrogacy to a western couple would be in the top couple of percent of the luckiest, most secure, comfortable and wanted children in the world. A guaranteed warm home, two loving parents, an education (until 18, at least!), not married against their will, no conflict, no chance of starvation or future of poverty. Probably their own bedroom and presents multiple times a year, a wide family network and the chance to make friends in one place without having to move.

These are things that not a lot of children can count upon. Personally I think we need to see a lot more adoption rather than surrogacy though--it's horrible to think of the parentless children living on streets or dying of starvation when there are childless people who would do anything to care for them**

I completely agree