What do you expect transwomen to do then?

[Blibbyblobby]

@JohnHuffam1812 asked me a question on the woke thread that I think deserves an answer. The thread closed before I could post it but I’m answering here and hope that JohnHuff will see it and maybe give his/her/their thoughts.

What do you expect transwomen to do then? Should they not just be extended as much as they possible can within reason?

I expect trans women to acknowledge they are not female and that female experiences are also valid. I expect them to take as a starting point that the existing female-only spaces - ie everything defined as “women-only” when woman was synonymous with female - remain single sex for now. And then we work together, case by case, to see what can be reasonably opened up as mixed sex/single gender, and what might justify some third provisions, and what is just plain female and doesn’t really intersect with trans women’s needs and lives full stop.

I don’t know where that conversation will end up, and I don’t need to know. Maybe we will come to an agreement that “woman” becomes an entirely gender term that coexists with an entirely separate name for the female-bodied. Maybe, as trans women learn more about female people’s lives, they will decide the thing they recognise in themselves is not womanhood and the journey goes somewhere else. Maybe we will see a way forward that reduces the importance of both sex and gender for everyone and as we gain a more truly equal culture, the need to be seen as the “gender” one “truly is” just seems less and less important.

The point is, the first step is to communicate fairly, respectfully and openly. Without that we won’t be able to find reasonable solutions. But once we do communicate fairly, respectfully and openly, reasonable solutions will be surprisingly easy to find.

Basically, I expect trans women to respect our differences, and I expect us all to respect each other, speak honestly, listen with acceptance, and take it from there.

But blibby.

What I said has been said a million times. And the response is invariably, being GNC is not the same as being trans at all.

... Even though some trans orgs include being GNC in their trans umbrella.

There's no point. What you're doing. Been there done that over and over and over.

Also because there is no agreed actual definition of anything. It's up to trans individuals to decide what it is about for them personally.

That's where this woman is formless type stuff comes in.

There is no consensus whatsoever that knowing your gender identity is woman has anything to do with gender roles. At all.

And after all. If it was to do with GNC, that means there are hardly any 'cis' women in existence to be oppressed by.

There is nothing to be gained for women and girls and everything to be lost by seeing this as a "joint struggle" , it's not it's male supremacy and colonisation imo.

Indeed. And we know this because the answer to the question 'what's in it for women?' is 'nothing'. Nothing except problems.

HoardingSamphireSaurus

RepentMotherfucker

And also trying to start this discussion in FWR makes it absolutely clear who the concessions are expected to come from. This is not the 'Talking about what trans people need' topic.

The title came, I thought, from another thread. A thread that had at least 2 TRA type posters. This was an invitation to them to come and talk specifically about one question that was raised.

Somewhat predictablyJohnhas not bothered.

That thread was in Chat though no? So why has the invitation to continue the discussion migrated here? Take it to TRA twitter.

It was AIBU

The now full thread being referred to

Why does 'wokeness' annoy people so much? http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/4437185-why-does-wokeness-annoy-people-so-much

Thanks Ereshkigal. 👍

Bah posted comment on that thread and full!

Was for blibby. >

'I read your points and views on a different thread.

Yes an open good faith debate, or not a debate. That's still 'sides'. A genuine discussion with open mind and try to come to some accord or at least dial back the polarity etc.

Would have been good, years ago.

Before various laws policies etc got quietly changed around eg hosp wards, prisons etc. And not till years later did the changes even get realised by those not directly involved...

It's not women who know sex is fundamentally important esp to women/girls in so many massive ways that don't want to discuss. It really isn't.

Sadly it's too late. We've tried and been vilified, reported to police, threatened, denounced, accused of being a bizarre assortment of extreme political positions (many of which are totally unrelated/ condictory).

Take your point grub other thread about gender/ sex role and how people can feel they don't fit.

Try it on discussion boards etc popular with vocal gender> sex individuals/ orgs.

You will get called every name under the sun. You will get told that being GNC is not the same as being trans. That to suggest this is transphobic. That gender ID is unrelated to stereotypes, appearance, roles etc. And you will get a clobbering, despite the fact that plenty of tags orgs/ resources STATE that being GNC IS v linked to being trans.'

Placed mark

@RepentMotherfucker

HoardingSamphireSaurus

RepentMotherfucker

And also trying to start this discussion in FWR makes it absolutely clear who the concessions are expected to come from. This is not the 'Talking about what trans people need' topic.

The title came, I thought, from another thread. A thread that had at least 2 TRA type posters. This was an invitation to them to come and talk specifically about one question that was raised.

Somewhat predictablyJohnhas not bothered.

That thread was in Chat though no? So why has the invitation to continue the discussion migrated here? Take it to TRA twitter.

They would have been moved here anyway, might even have been moved, blibby could confirm/ deny that.

We are only allowed to discuss this issue here, this one specific fora. The one it refers to was not about trans issues or women's rights.

So don't blame us for it being here. Most regular posters would love to be able to discuss this in Chat or AIBU. But Those Who Monitor report any thread in the 'wrong' place and it gets moved here.

"Do you know much about people? They don’t always behave well, or rationally, or in their own best interests. No, I’m not new. Yes, I read the angry voices on Twitter, and the confused ones, and the scared ones, and the scary ones.

What I see is people who are trapped by rigid gender beliefs. Misogyny is just another side of the same coin. It’s all the same screwed up ideas about gender."

Yes I know plenty about people I have been having to deal with them for decades.

their rigid gender belief is their own problem for adhering to an outdated ideology that was created in the 1940s by a man who caused the suicide of two men, an ideology that reinforces the sexist patriarchy by pigeonholing, its the same ideology that declares the gay must be feminine and the lesbian butch, little girls and boys must not stray from their roles.

go read the DSM5 criteria for gender dysphoria, every girl born in the 1970s or 80s would be classed as "in the wrong body" and Porn culture hasn't even been taken into account at all. no wonder the kids are angry, frightened and confused.

they adhering to a confused new belief system that states sex doesn't matter only gender does and gender is decided by a fixed range of sexist stereotypes based on Victorian sex roles , then they are constantly conflating sex with gender, using the two interchangeably to cause themselves even more confusion and claiming someone assigns your sex at birth, they are constantly whipped up into a state of eternal victimhood and persecution by the very nature of their beliefs, that pigeonhole them far more strictly then sex ever has, or sexuality. as both sex and sexuality are a case of "I am born/attracted to therefor I am", where as transgender is a case of "I behave as, therefore I must be"......unless they are NB then it is "I dont behave as, therefore I cant be".

the whole thing is an exercise in repression.