What do you expect transwomen to do then?

[Blibbyblobby]

@JohnHuffam1812 asked me a question on the woke thread that I think deserves an answer. The thread closed before I could post it but I’m answering here and hope that JohnHuff will see it and maybe give his/her/their thoughts.

What do you expect transwomen to do then? Should they not just be extended as much as they possible can within reason?

I expect trans women to acknowledge they are not female and that female experiences are also valid. I expect them to take as a starting point that the existing female-only spaces - ie everything defined as “women-only” when woman was synonymous with female - remain single sex for now. And then we work together, case by case, to see what can be reasonably opened up as mixed sex/single gender, and what might justify some third provisions, and what is just plain female and doesn’t really intersect with trans women’s needs and lives full stop.

I don’t know where that conversation will end up, and I don’t need to know. Maybe we will come to an agreement that “woman” becomes an entirely gender term that coexists with an entirely separate name for the female-bodied. Maybe, as trans women learn more about female people’s lives, they will decide the thing they recognise in themselves is not womanhood and the journey goes somewhere else. Maybe we will see a way forward that reduces the importance of both sex and gender for everyone and as we gain a more truly equal culture, the need to be seen as the “gender” one “truly is” just seems less and less important.

The point is, the first step is to communicate fairly, respectfully and openly. Without that we won’t be able to find reasonable solutions. But once we do communicate fairly, respectfully and openly, reasonable solutions will be surprisingly easy to find.

Basically, I expect trans women to respect our differences, and I expect us all to respect each other, speak honestly, listen with acceptance, and take it from there.

What do you expect transwomen to do then? Should they not just be extended as much as they possible can within reason?

But why? Why should they "not just be extended as much as they possible can within reason"?

Why?

Men who identify as trans enjoy all the same rights that their fellow men have, as well being afforded the right not to be discriminated against based on their chosen gender identity.

People jump straight to "What do we do about transwomen?" as if it is a given that we have all accepted that "transwomen" are somehow different and special to other men.

Let's back it up a little. They are just men. Men who don't want to be seen as men, but men none the less. Men who wanted to be treated as special based on their feelings and chosen identity. Men who, while presenting to the world as their idea of what a woman is, will still amongst their cohort exhibit the same traits that can be identified amongst men in general - kindness, shyness, outgoingness, violent tendencies, empathy, misogyny, etc. etc. The whole glorious tapestry of humanity.

This nonsense has to stop. It is the greatest hoodwink of the past decade, the idea that this subset of men are something other than men. It doesn't matter to me that some are kind or harmless or bullying or violent. We don't allow other men access to women's single-sex basis based on whether or not they are kind or harmless.

Answer me this question first: What compelling reason is there to give this subset of men more rights than their fellow men, especially when this infringe on the rights of women?

This is a men's issue which should be addressed amongst men and women shouldn't even be asked "what do you expect transwomen to do then?" Asking that question is putting the mental and emotional load back on women

Additionally, it is an extremely disingenuous question to ask because women have been saying what should be done but men who identify as trans just want to hear one answer. They have shown time and time again that they do not care about women's concerns. The only answer they want to hear is, "We should allow transwomen unfettered access to all women's spaces, sports, prizes, everything. They should be treated as women."

What should men who identify as trans do? Accept who they are and accept that if they choose to live as their "authentic self", no one else is obliged to go along with it. None of us gets exactly what we want in life. We make decisions, we weigh up the consequences of those decisions and we decide if the outcome of our decision will be worth the consequences, good and bad.

Third spaces are the only possible solution. The Layla Morans and other allied women will be very happy to use them as they mention so frequently how mixed sex spaces work fine for them. Parents with children of the opposite sex will use them. Female spaces can then remain for females only alongside, and when the day comes when they're cobwebbed, unused and no one needs them any more, I suppose we're done needing sex segregation. But it must be a choice, and the range of provisions cannot exclude anyone. That will involve TQ+ politics respecting that inclusion means female people too, and respecting that other people's needs get met in addition.

It will also have to be faced up to as to what the real issue with third spaces is. And that requiring people as a resource in any circumstances is just a flat no.

The problem is we can't say what we want to happen without being accused of prejudice

But I think it's entirely reasonable that, say, a ladies night at a nightclub where women get free drinks should be based on gender

Ladies get free drinks because men think it hightens their chances of getting more male customers who think they will have a higher chance of getting laid (because the ladies are drunk). And this makes them more money.

I hate to use the phrase moronic but I'm struggling here. Do you really not understand basic behavioural patterns?

@Shedmistress

But I think it's entirely reasonable that, say, a ladies night at a nightclub where women get free drinks should be based on gender

Ladies get free drinks because men think it hightens their chances of getting more male customers who think they will have a higher chance of getting laid (because the ladies are drunk). And this makes them more money.

I hate to use the phrase moronic but I'm struggling here. Do you really not understand basic behavioural patterns?

Of course I do. Why do you think I want to hand that one over to Gender?

“Ladies nights” are a prime example of “woman” as a socially constructed gender role rather than a sex-based need, so I say let anyone who identifies with that “womanly” gender role enjoy it!

Participation is, after all, entirely voluntary and I’m pretty sure female people who reject gender would not want to go anyway, free drinks or not.

And if the clubs find there’s a commercial concern in making their Ladies mixed-sex, set the TRAs on them.

@twelly

The problem is we can't say what we want to happen without being accused of prejudice

And?

I dont know about you but the more they try to silence us the more I want to take to the streets. The Suffragettes had to set fire to things and smash stuff up to be listened to, sad men still have not learned from that and still think they can bully us into silent compliance.

the tide seems to be turning tho and hopefully that wont be necessary, but we shall see.

It's more that I think we and they are both, in different ways, trying to fight the dominant male culture to make spaces for ourselves. So I think joining our perspectives is of mutual benefit.

I cannot get on board with this. There are very few men who identify as trans currently trying to fight the dominant male culture. Predominately we see these men demanding that they access women's spaces and be treated as women in sports, etc.

If they are trying to fight the dominant male culture, why do they show such contempt for women who speak about women's rights?

Why do they use slurs to refer to us?

Why do they reject preserving single-sex spaces for women and offering a gender-neutral or mixed sex space for men who identify as trans and women who are happy to share with them?

Why are they determined to appropriate or erase language that is specific to females?

Why do they insist that lesbians who do not want to date a person with a penis is a bigot?

Why do they demand we ignore our instincts?

Why do they try to compel how we speak?

On issues that affect women, on the patriarchy, on misogyny, I feel no fellowship with a man who identifies as trans. I see them as part of the patriarchy, part of dominant male culture. Is there any better illustration of this than the fact that men who identify as trans are so publicly celebrated while women who are impacted by their actions are ignored? Lia Thomas. Laurel Hubbard. They LITERALLY took the places of women in sports competitions. Rachel Levine, a man who transitioned in his 50s, is celebrated as the first "female" (!!!) four-star admiral? Torrey Peters making the shortlist of the Women's Prize for Fiction thereby denying a woman a place?

Let them make space for themselves, sure, but it doesn't have to be in our spaces. When they identify out of manhood, they leave a space empty that they previously occupied. Let them annexe those spaces. Let them negotiate with their fellow men. Women spent too long fighting for their rights just to give them up on the say so of a small subset of men.

As long as men who identify as trans claim they are women (TWAW) then our perspectives will never intersect. When they accept they are not women, can never be women, can never be female, then we might be able to have a conversation about the dominant male culture.

@justaftb

It's more that I think we and they are both, in different ways, trying to fight the dominant male culture to make spaces for ourselves. So I think joining our perspectives is of mutual benefit.

I cannot get on board with this. There are very few men who identify as trans currently trying to fight the dominant male culture. Predominately we see these men demanding that they access women's spaces and be treated as women in sports, etc.

If they are trying to fight the dominant male culture, why do they show such contempt for women who speak about women's rights?

Why do they use slurs to refer to us?

Why do they reject preserving single-sex spaces for women and offering a gender-neutral or mixed sex space for men who identify as trans and women who are happy to share with them?

Why are they determined to appropriate or erase language that is specific to females?

Why do they insist that lesbians who do not want to date a person with a penis is a bigot?

Why do they demand we ignore our instincts?

Why do they try to compel how we speak?

On issues that affect women, on the patriarchy, on misogyny, I feel no fellowship with a man who identifies as trans. I see them as part of the patriarchy, part of dominant male culture. Is there any better illustration of this than the fact that men who identify as trans are so publicly celebrated while women who are impacted by their actions are ignored? Lia Thomas. Laurel Hubbard. They LITERALLY took the places of women in sports competitions. Rachel Levine, a man who transitioned in his 50s, is celebrated as the first "female" (!!!) four-star admiral? Torrey Peters making the shortlist of the Women's Prize for Fiction thereby denying a woman a place?

Let them make space for themselves, sure, but it doesn't have to be in our spaces. When they identify out of manhood, they leave a space empty that they previously occupied. Let them annexe those spaces. Let them negotiate with their fellow men. Women spent too long fighting for their rights just to give them up on the say so of a small subset of men.

As long as men who identify as trans claim they are women (TWAW) then our perspectives will never intersect. When they accept they are not women, can never be women, can never be female, then we might be able to have a conversation about the dominant male culture.

Absolutely this - hello new patriarchy; same as the old patriarchy.

As long as men who identify as trans claim they are women (TWAW) then our perspectives will never intersect. When they accept they are not women, can never be women, can never be female, then we might be able to have a conversation about the dominant male culture.

Which was the very first thing I said:

I expect trans women to acknowledge they are not female and that female experiences are also valid… I expect trans women to respect our differences, and I expect us all to respect each other, speak honestly, listen with acceptance, and take it from there.

"It's more that I think we and they are both, in different ways, trying to fight the dominant male culture to make spaces for ourselves. So I think joining our perspectives is of mutual benefit."

damn thats the funniest thing I've read all day are you new? maybe look at Twitter and see the hate filled posts they put up or read the news, or watch the sport like swimming where they muscle in and dont give a damn. the majority, at least the majority of vocal ones/ones in the public eys are misogynists.

OK OP - you want to reimagine society and dismantle underlying patriarchal structures so that women only spaces are not needed and the male gaze no longer exists.

AND in your new feminist Utopia there are still going to be Ladies Nights? And TW would be welcome at those?

Cool. Let me know when you're done with the gender revolution. 😁

TW may be fighting the dominant male culture, but they are part of the dominant male culture. Their fight is entirely different to ours. We have no responsibility for their issues. The fact that some males cannot get on with other males is not women's problem to solve.

@VelvetChairGirl

"It's more that I think we and they are both, in different ways, trying to fight the dominant male culture to make spaces for ourselves. So I think joining our perspectives is of mutual benefit."

damn thats the funniest thing I've read all day are you new? maybe look at Twitter and see the hate filled posts they put up or read the news, or watch the sport like swimming where they muscle in and dont give a damn. the majority, at least the majority of vocal ones/ones in the public eys are misogynists.

Do you know much about people? They don’t always behave well, or rationally, or in their own best interests. No, I’m not new. Yes, I read the angry voices on Twitter, and the confused ones, and the scared ones, and the scary ones.

What I see is people who are trapped by rigid gender beliefs. Misogyny is just another side of the same coin. It’s all the same screwed up ideas about gender.

I will work with anyone to dismantle gender expectations

It's a bit tricky to suggest working with transgender people on that because you then get accused of trying to eliminate them from existence

They can crack on with whatever they want frankly. Their struggles are not my struggles and I can think of at least four other axes of oppression I would put my energy into tackling before this one.

It's a poisoned well for me.

@RepentMotherfucker

OK OP - you want to reimagine society and dismantle underlying patriarchal structures so that women only spaces are not needed and the male gaze no longer exists.

AND in your new feminist Utopia there are still going to be Ladies Nights? And TW would be welcome at those?

Cool. Let me know when you're done with the gender revolution. 😁

As I said, I have no idea where it will end up. I want the conversation to start and see where it leads.

So if there’s a bunch of people who want Ladies Nights to exist and we can disconnect that entirely from female bodies, why not?

After all the Genderist concept of womanhood is already entirely disconnected from female reality - it literally has to be, otherwise trans women could not be (genderist idea of) women - so why not give it a push to exist as a thing in its own right?

We’ve all observed gender identities are becoming just like the subcultures of earlier youth, so if people want to inhabit those cultural spaces and we disconnect them from sex altogether, why not?

Also - men who identify as trans trying to fight the dominant male culture?

A great example of how they do nothing to fight the dominant male culture is how men who identify as trans and their allies behaved during the most recent Counting Dead Women on Twitter where Karen Ingala Smith tweeted the names of all the women who had been killed by men in the UK in the previous year.

Did men who identify as trans and their allies tweet to support and uplift Karen Ingala Smith's efforts to draw attention to the issue of femicide in the UK? Did they tweet to condemn male violence against women and girls? Did they tweet to tell us what they are doing to fight back against male violence? Did they tweet to thank her for her tough but necessary work?

No, they tweeted to attack her and her supporters for not including men who identify as trans in the list of women killed by men in the previous year. Of course, even if she wanted to include them, she couldn't because no man who identified as trans had been killed in the UK during that timeframe. They made it all about themselves. They threw the "TERF" slur at any women who pointed this out.

How can we join our perspectives with a group of men who cannot even allow us to talk about the number of women who are violently killed by men in the UK each year without telling us that, in fact, men who identify as women are much more vulnerable than women and girls? These men even want to appropriate the violence done to us.

You might argue that we shouldn't listen to what is said on Twitter, it's full of lunatics. So, let's end with a few words from prominent transwoman Christine Berns MBE (MBE!!!) about what they feel about women who speak up for their rights:

“In a bizarre way rapists have a better line in manners [than Feminist Leaders]. At least they treat their victims, without prejudice, as women.”

“Ladies nights” are a prime example of “woman” as a socially constructed gender role rather than a sex-based need, so I say let anyone who identifies with that “womanly” gender role enjoy it!

When men realise that the women they are potentially date raping are men, the drinks will stop flowing I can assure you.

Jesus. H. Christ on a fucking bike.

"It's more that I think we and they are both, in different ways, trying to fight the dominant male culture to make spaces for ourselves. So I think joining our perspectives is of mutual benefit."

Except quite a lot of TRAs really don’t want to challenge the dominant culture or dismantle gender expectations at all - they want to reinforce them! What about sissy porn, forced femininity, and trans activists like Andrea Long Chu and Torrey Peters who write about how the essence of femininity is enforced penetration and submission to male violence?!

I could never work together with anyone who
writes that the “barest essentials” of “femaleness” are “an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes” (Chu); or that enjoying forced sex and being slapped across the face by a man is the purest form of female experience (Peters).

No thank you.

I wouldn’t mind a definition/ term for the socially fabricated idea of women and girls that’s wholly defined by the male gaze as this seems to be the essence that TW identify with but is very far from real womanhood. If we can establish that so many TW actually identify as this, we can begin to reclaim our rights.

@Shedmistress

“Ladies nights” are a prime example of “woman” as a socially constructed gender role rather than a sex-based need, so I say let anyone who identifies with that “womanly” gender role enjoy it!

When men realise that the women they are potentially date raping are men, the drinks will stop flowing I can assure you.

Jesus. H. Christ on a fucking bike.

They’d know upfront it was Lady-gender-night obviously!

But this is exactly the type of conversation that I would like to see happening. And I would very much like to see TRAs put some effort into demanding trans women are welcome and safe at Ladies Nights up and down the UK.

Well we used to just call that “gender” or “sex stereotypes”, but “gender” used to mean the social fantasies of womanhood that the patriarchy enacts and polices on women; and now gender ideologues think it means “an inner soul essence of gender that represents your true sex role” instead.

That was a response to @MorkandMandy’s question - essentially gender used to mean just that, but it’s been hijacked recently to mean something else - a quasi-religious idea that sex stereotypes are actually real inner things and not projections of what men (and patriarchal society) think women are.

I've not read the whole thread but sounds like the OP is proffering a partial solution... TransWomen are Ladies.