What do you expect transwomen to do then?

[Blibbyblobby]

@JohnHuffam1812 asked me a question on the woke thread that I think deserves an answer. The thread closed before I could post it but I’m answering here and hope that JohnHuff will see it and maybe give his/her/their thoughts.

What do you expect transwomen to do then? Should they not just be extended as much as they possible can within reason?

I expect trans women to acknowledge they are not female and that female experiences are also valid. I expect them to take as a starting point that the existing female-only spaces - ie everything defined as “women-only” when woman was synonymous with female - remain single sex for now. And then we work together, case by case, to see what can be reasonably opened up as mixed sex/single gender, and what might justify some third provisions, and what is just plain female and doesn’t really intersect with trans women’s needs and lives full stop.

I don’t know where that conversation will end up, and I don’t need to know. Maybe we will come to an agreement that “woman” becomes an entirely gender term that coexists with an entirely separate name for the female-bodied. Maybe, as trans women learn more about female people’s lives, they will decide the thing they recognise in themselves is not womanhood and the journey goes somewhere else. Maybe we will see a way forward that reduces the importance of both sex and gender for everyone and as we gain a more truly equal culture, the need to be seen as the “gender” one “truly is” just seems less and less important.

The point is, the first step is to communicate fairly, respectfully and openly. Without that we won’t be able to find reasonable solutions. But once we do communicate fairly, respectfully and openly, reasonable solutions will be surprisingly easy to find.

Basically, I expect trans women to respect our differences, and I expect us all to respect each other, speak honestly, listen with acceptance, and take it from there.

I expect people who have not been socialised as a female (as in, they have lived the female experience since birth) to stop insisting that they are the same and that they understand what it is to be a female.

Just as I don’t claim to understand the male experience, or the black experience, or the Jewish one, or the upper class one, or the Roma Gypsy one. Because I am none of those things and even if I merge into that lifestyle and culture in later life, I still do not and can not ever understand the true experience, because it does not belong to me.

You can’t understand what it is to be something you are not.

Just as speaking fluent French does not make you French. You are never native.

I expect trans women to understand this and respect this.

@foxgoosefinch Exactly. And always defined by men and systemically oppressive for us. Where can I find a definition of this “essence” that somehow male-socialised, male-bodied people identify with that isn’t related to biology, genetics or their own socialisation? What do they think it is if not purely to be born a woman?

But this is exactly the type of conversation that I would like to see happening. And I would very much like to see TRAs put some effort into demanding trans women are welcome and safe at Ladies Nights up and down the UK

Yes most important, discussions about including men in the date rape envelope. Top work.

If that's exactly the sort of conversation that you think need to be had then I can't help you really. I'd rather no women were date raped but there we go.

@foxgoosefinch

"It's more that I think we and they are both, in different ways, trying to fight the dominant male culture to make spaces for ourselves. So I think joining our perspectives is of mutual benefit."

Except quite a lot of TRAs really don’t want to challenge the dominant culture or dismantle gender expectations at all - they want to reinforce them! What about sissy porn, forced femininity, and trans activists like Andrea Long Chu and Torrey Peters who write about how the essence of femininity is enforced penetration and submission to male violence?!

I could never work together with anyone who
writes that the “barest essentials” of “femaleness” are “an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes” (Chu); or that enjoying forced sex and being slapped across the face by a man is the purest form of female experience (Peters).

No thank you.

But this is exactly what I mean. The “womanhood” these trans women aspire to is nothing to do with being female. It’s a gender role created by patriarchy which they feel believe they are excluded from as men so must become “women” to assume.

But this isexactlythe type of conversation that I would like to see happening. And I would very much like to see TRAs put some effort into demanding trans women are welcome and safe at Ladies Nights up and down the UK.

No. I think this would be a stupid conversation and I have no desire to engage in it at all.

I think the overwhelming feeling on the thread is a lot more resistant to gender ideology than what you are proposing OP. And that's great. We don't need to compromise with unreasonable people.

Hands off Women's Spaces!

It is not in the interests of trans activists to dismantle gender expectations.

How can you claim you always knew you were a girl because you liked playing with your sister's doll when you were a child if those gender expectations do not exist?

How can you present to the world as a "woman" if all the stereotypical expectations of how women dress and groom themselves disappear? I

Imagine a world in which we all just wear the same bodysuits a la Star Trek and shave our heads, no make up. What would being trans be based on then?

Trans does not exist without gender expectations. Trans IS gender expectations.

Noting to come back and read.

@Shedmistress

But this is exactly the type of conversation that I would like to see happening. And I would very much like to see TRAs put some effort into demanding trans women are welcome and safe at Ladies Nights up and down the UK

Yes most important, discussions about including men in the date rape envelope. Top work.

If that's exactly the sort of conversation that you think need to be had then I can't help you really. I'd rather no women were date raped but there we go.

Did you miss the word “safe”, or just ignore it?

I don’t want anyone date raped, as if that had to be said.

@ErrolTheDragon

I've not read the whole thread but sounds like the OP is proffering a partial solution... TransWomen are Ladies.

Which must mean that women who are unladylike are not women....?

Yes - but that’s not fighting patriarchy; that’s upholding it. It’s no different to how patriarchy works by subordinating “lesser” men, but allowing them to work out their frustration at their “lesser” status by still being superior to women and other races. Only in this case there’s a desire for being subordinated - whether erotic, psychological, emotional or social. In just the sane way that some men enjoy other kinds of submission - like submitting themselves to a more dominant male master/senior officer/troop commander/gang leader/prime minister/king/inverted stereotype in BDSM and so on. It just reinforces the hierarchy, not fights against it - because the submission to the hierarchy is the point.

Only that’s getting too close to what we aren’t allowed to talk about, of course.

*same

Did you miss the word “safe”, or just ignore it?

You said you want trans women to be safe.

You didn't mention women.

You are a deluded fool if you think men want to date rape other men and pay more for their drinks in order to do so.

They won't do that.

I genuinely have no idea what you are arguing for. It's like those that start arguments to include men in beauty contests. Knock yourselves out. Do not give a shit.

If that's your comprehension level or pivotal point of your arguments then you don't even understand the problem.

And we can all see that TRA treatment of women is very much “we are women, but better and more important women than you women, who now must defer to our superior (“more vulnerable”) status and be given whatever we want”.

@justaftb

Imagine a world in which we all just wear the same bodysuits a la Star Trek and shave our heads, no make up. What would being trans be based on then?

Why the same bodysuits?

I imagine a world where sparkles and lumberjack shirts and jobs and yes, maybe even Ladies Night drinks are no longer associated with a specific sex. I don’t know if being trans would exist in that world. I suspect not, or maybe as a last resort treatment for severe, likely trauma induced dysphoria. But I think many people who would be trans in our world would find their place without transitioning.

It’s a way of inserting yourself into the hierarchy as dominated, but also doing some dominating at the same time - the equivalent of the poor working class man going home and beating his wife to feel in charge.

Did you miss the word “safe”, or just ignore it?

I don’t want anyone date raped, as if that had to be said

I get that it's just a silly example and now you're being held to it but that is because it actually betrays the paucity of this argument.

You're saying you want to cede some stuff to TW but just stuff around gendered expectations. But you're also saying you want to do away with gendered expectations. As do all radfems.

So no, there isn't a load of stuff that feminists can accommodate TW into and say 'you are welcome to this part of the feamle experience' because all that stuff is the stuff we reject as being part of the female experience.

OP

Men and boys can wear sparkles and it doesn't make them women or girls.

Women and girls can wear lumberjack shirts and it doesn't make them men or boys.

I have no idea why you think it does. Changing clothes doesn't do anything, that's why the previous poster mentioned 'same bodysuits'.

And if you want a world where 'sparkles' meet 'lumberjack shirts' you can just come look at my DD.

Those aren't the issue. It's the raping and the porn and the domestic violence and the having to be fucking kind to everyone all of the fucking time and constantly being asked, 'what can we give up?' 'What shall we offer to the oppressors to appease them?'

And this thread is PART OF THAT.

[quote Blibbyblobby]@justaftb

Imagine a world in which we all just wear the same bodysuits a la Star Trek and shave our heads, no make up. What would being trans be based on then?

Why the same bodysuits?

I imagine a world where sparkles and lumberjack shirts and jobs and yes, maybe even Ladies Night drinks are no longer associated with a specific sex. I don’t know if being trans would exist in that world. I suspect not, or maybe as a last resort treatment for severe, likely trauma induced dysphoria. But I think many people who would be trans in our world would find their place without transitioning.[/quote]
The current insistence by men who identify as trans that they be validated as women makes me suspect that they would be very disappointed in a world where they were seen as just another man in a dress rather than being seen as female.

so if people want to inhabit those cultural spaces and we disconnect them from sex altogether, why not?

If we're going to get all theoretical about inhabiting cultural spaces... the reason why not is because some people - mainly males - can disconnect their gender from their sex when it suits them and then re-connect again when it suits them. And because when they do get to inhabit a female cultural space, males seem to feel (and are granted) a lot more cultural freedom to dominate that space than females feel and are given to dominate a male cultural space. Female people get far fewer opportunities to move between female and male cultural spaces, much less to dominate male ones.

By all means feel free to correct that problem and let us know when you've fixed it, and then we can talk about de-segregating women-only spaces. But until you've done that you can't use transwomen to de-segregate women-only spaces.

Giving some people - men - more freedom to disconnect from their sex when it suits them doesn't automatically give other people - women - the opportunity to do the same.

(Why am I having to explain this? Didn't we do this to death back in the 1970s when feminists argued that women-only spaces were a good idea and that even nice well-meaning hippy-ish blokes weren't welcome? Am I in a time warp?)

TransWomen are Ladies

I would not be that naughty .

But genuinely, things labelled “Ladies” as opposed to “Women’s” do tend to be gender/social constructs around womanhood and as such, I’d say fair game for anyone who feels the gender identity of woman. (So trans women yes, but also self-identifying cis women and nbs passing through). I am not, for the sarcastically-challenged, proposing this as a genuine rule.

Which must mean that women who are unladylike are not women....?

No. Woman (assuming you mean female people here) are women. They may or may not choose to be ladylike. They are still women.
.

I do love the thought that the drinks prices for the blokes are going up again, not due to inflation, but the vast amount of ale it's gonna take to get trans women as drunk as you know, an actual woman.

What a ride.

But genuinely, things labelled “Ladies” as opposed to “Women’s” do tend to be gender/social constructs around womanhood and as such, I’d say fair game for anyone who feels thegender identityof woman

Like, erm...the Ladies?

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

so if people want to inhabit those cultural spaces and we disconnect them from sex altogether, why not?

If we're going to get all theoretical about inhabiting cultural spaces... the reason why not is because some people - mainly males - can disconnect their gender from their sex when it suits them and then re-connect again when it suits them. And because when they do get to inhabit a female cultural space, males seem to feel (and are granted) a lot more cultural freedom to dominate that space than females feel and are given to dominate a male cultural space. Female people get far fewer opportunities to move between female and male cultural spaces, much less to dominate male ones.

By all means feel free to correct that problem and let us know when you've fixed it, and then we can talk about de-segregating women-only spaces. But until you've done that you can't use transwomen to de-segregate women-only spaces.

Giving some people - men - more freedom to disconnect from their sex when it suits them doesn't automatically give other people - women - the opportunity to do the same.

(Why am I having to explain this? Didn't we do this to death back in the 1970s when feminists argued that women-only spaces were a good idea and that even nice well-meaning hippy-ish blokes weren't welcome? Am I in a time warp?)

This was good.

What a load of baloney.

"Ladies" is a commonly-used synonym for "Women" and its use on a toilet or changing room door has nothing to do with gender/social constructs around womanhood. It does not signal "If you identify as a woman, you should use these facilities, if you simply identify as a biological female, please use the toilets marked "Women"".