Womens and Equalities report on GRA to be published tomorrow 21 Dec

[Imnobody4]

twitter.com/Commonswomequ/status/1472915228392398855?t=fm9kVI9s31fOBPCnBSNYqg&s=19

Our report into the Reform of the Gender Recognition Act is being published tomorrow. Take a look at the work we have done relating to this inquiry over the past year: t.co/uOlY23nhuN t.co/l123I2UQyQ

Still haven't published my evidence. Is this usual? Sneaking it out befote Xmas - suspicious or what?

I’d like to suggest that anyone who wants to yell at left wing feminists because some right wingers agree with us about some stuff…

should Google “trans girl Nazi phase,” without the quote marks. And then fuck off and yell at those “women” instead. Beam in your own eye and whatever.

Apparently female people wanting equality, rights and equal consideration to less than 1% of males are going to bring on the apocalypse and four horsemen will be seen riding across the burning wastes of Europe.

No. You cannot have my rights, nor the rights of other females. Whatever you need is going to have to be provided alongside meeting the needs of those female people. Compromise. Tolerance.

There is a potentially horrifying future for young women. It revolves round this powerful male dominated ideology removing the sex class of women (so women's oppression can never be identified), targeting young children (girls and boys) unable to protect themselves and gaslighting them into believing their developing bodies need fixing with a lifetime of drugs and surgery, all the time using anti democratic tactics of bullying, aggression and attempting to get those women and men protesting fired and cancelled.

look at Kiera Bell, now an out and out anti-vaxxer - threatening to attack Gillick competence in the courts backed by evangelical lawyers and supported by Pose Parker.

Yeah, blokes still can't come into the ladies.

Soz.

feminists of later generations are not likely to look back on it with anything but horror and contempt.

That women stood up and protested at

• male sex offenders assaulting, harassing and intimidating female prisoners
• female people being excluded from rape shelters, crisis services, public toilets, leisure facilities, so that male people could have their best preferred choice
• female homosexuals being shamed and harassed to validate male people by providing their body and 'learning to cope' with unenjoyed, unwanted sex for the better benefit of males
• female groups being driven out of existence or underground by males absolutely intolerant of females being permitted anything at all for themselves that did not centre males and male best interests
• safeguarding for children being loosened and abandoned altogether to provide freedom and validation to male peoples interests above the childrens.

For goodness sake.

Gender critical feminism is already harming women, and young feminists seem to have recognised that.

Wrong. Gender Identity Ideology is already harming women and girls and this is recognised by women and girls of all ages, creeds, religions, nationalities and ethnicities.

Would you like me to list the ways Gender Identity Ideology is doing harm to women and girls? Or will you just hand wave it away and ignore the damage being done as is your wont.

Young 'feminists' party to this destruction of women and girls safety, privacy, dignity and rights are categorically NOT feminists, feminists put women and girls first.

It's hardly surprising Kiera Bell is dubious of medicine after what was done to her.

barleybadminton

Complete nonsense. It’s not GC feminists calling for ‘peoples’ abortion rights. Or reducing women (never men) to collections of reproductive parts like ‘cervix owners’ or ‘menstruators’. It’s not GC feminists cheering on males taking medals and records in womens sports. It’s not GC feminists thinking that a convicted sex offender indecently exposing himself in front of young girls is fine because he ‘feels like a woman inside’. It’s not GC feminists who think that that a man’s right to validation of his ‘female identity’ is more important than a woman’s right to privacy and safety from the opposite sex. It’s GC feminists who state the obvious - that Judith Butlers main talent appears to be stringing together long words into meaningless sentences and that this isn’t the same as having anything meaningful to say.

It’s GC feminists saying that young, autistic, lesbian girls shouldn’t be sterilized and have their breasts cut off because they don’t fit some ridiculous female stereotype.

And frankly GC feminists have discovered that left wing men are often contemptuous of women, especially those with opinions contrary to theirs, and gender ideology has simply given them the perfect cover for their objectionable views.

When Keir and his team stop waffling nonsense about ‘saying women have cervixes is something that shouldn’t be said’ because they are terrified of a tiny extremist minority I might consider them. But until then they have shown their true colours and I prefer Liz Truss who at least has a grip on reality .

@VestofAbsurdity

Gender critical feminism is already harming women, and young feminists seem to have recognised that.

Wrong. Gender Identity Ideology is already harming women and girls and this is recognised by women and girls of all ages, creeds, religions, nationalities and ethnicities.

Would you like me to list the ways Gender Identity Ideology is doing harm to women and girls? Or will you just hand wave it away and ignore the damage being done as is your wont.

You see when I talk to friends no-one is experiencing this. No-one really cares about trans women using women's toilets. None of the horrors being threatened are actually really manifesting in women;s live beyond a few isolated examples.

But the cuts to VAWG services are real, and I know more than one worker in that sector furious with the gender critical movement for distorting something which isn;t recognised as a problem in the slightest amongst many front line workers and taking attention from the real problems facing the sector. Likewise activists supprting women in prisons or detention centres.

The attack on Gillick competence is real however and could prove devastating. As are the attacks on Roe vs Wade in the US, and it's likely attacks on LGB people will follow. The abandonment of gender pay gap reporting means women can no longer even truly know if pay policies in their workplace are fair. The rise of the far right, and anti 'gender ideology' campaigners, and the impact of that in some countries is real and devastating lives now. These are the problems the future generations of feminists are facing, and most of them couldn' care less about trans women using women's toilets, they've got trans mates, they care about the rise of the far and conservative right. And if someone like Patel or Raab take's Boris' place, then we may see an attack on trans people, but we will see a lot more than that and few will have sympathy wit those who participated in the political climate that allowed that to happen

You see when I talk to friends no-one is experiencing this. No-one really cares about trans women using women's toilets. None of the horrors being threatened are actually really manifesting in women;s live beyond a few isolated examples.

Then you and your friends are blinding yourselves to them. Yes, female people do care and are affected and are sharing their problems and actions right here for pete's sake.

Your denial of female needs just goes on and on. As part of your absolute inability to see females as equal to males, and your utter inability to tolerate other people's conflicting needs to be met alongside or to compromise so that everyone's needs can be met.

All you have is increasingly wild political hyperbole about the supposed evil of females wanting rights and equality too . It's only TW who insist it's their way or exclusion.

@barleybadminton

Gender critical feminism is already harming women, and young feminists seem to have recognised that. There is a backlash taking place against women's and LGBT rights across the world and that is likely to be the defining struggle for the next generation of feminists. And I'm afraid Judith Butler was right, gender critical feminists will not be part of that struggle. Or at least there is no sign of them being part of it so far, in fact in many cases people are collaborating with the enemy. And that is dangerous, because if an attack on trans people comes it will not be from a radical feminist or even gender critical government but a reactionary right government and they will not stop at trans women. The legacy of the gender critical movement's participation with the conservative right could mean a horrifying future for young women and if that happens feminists of later generations are not likely to look back on it with anything but horror and contempt.

As I told you before (in one of the many posts you have not replied to), if "The legacy of the gender critical movement's participation with the conservative right* could mean a horrifying future for young women" comes to pass it will be because your side, the genderists, did not engage with the valid concerns that female people have about their voices, their rights, indeed their entire existence as a meaningful social group being subjugated to a redefinition of womanhood as a non-physical concept that is written by and in service of male people's desires.

You seem to think that being disempowered and redefined by the left is somehow a better option for female people than being disempowered and redefined by the right. Let me tell you that from the point of view of one of the people being shat on here, left shit and right shit look pretty much the same viewed from underneath. All I can assume is that you prefer left shit because that way it's only the female half of humanity that lose out.

So I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is. If you are really so worried about that "The legacy of the gender critical movement's participation with the conservative right could mean a horrifying future for young women", it's very simple to stop it. All you need to do is raise your voice and demand that the left stops forcing the people who actually care about female rights away, takes off its misogynist blinkers, and shows up for female people!

Are you prepared to do that? To say "Yes, there is a clash between female needs and genderist demands, and we need to sit down and work out how to solve it"?

I promise you that is a far better way to protect female people and feminism from the right than telling us to shut the fuck up about the very real reasons female people object to in order to facilitate the unquestioning acceptance of genderism and privileging of males.

(* although it doesn't change my overall point, I will also note that this bogeyman you have fear of feminists in bed is way way less common than your ideologues like to claim, and in the UK at least mostly confined to life long left wing women saying "fucking hell, why the fuck is the Daily Mail more rational and fair to female people than the Guardian right now?")

Complete nonsense. It’s not GC feminists calling for ‘peoples’ abortion rights.

This is exactly the kind of things that makes me roll their eyes. The reproductive rights situation in the US is critical, and it could come here, there are plenty in the Tory Party and right wing press who would like to see that happens. So who cares if some abortion rights campaigners used trans inclusive language, it's hardly the issue, there might not be abortion rights in some US states soon, thats what young feminists are up against and petty distractions like this do not impress them.

that was supposed to say many people (and me) roll their eyes.

I'm not sure why British women need to concern themselves with impressing 'young feminists', and no, female people should not hand their rights over and surrender in order to fight the cause you designate as a better use of their time.

Ffs the midnight misogynist was peddling this to women here ten years ago. This conversation is getting increasingly ridiculous.

None of the horrors being threatened are actually really manifesting in women;s live beyond a few isolated examples.

Except, you know, the fact that female people cannot assemble in a public group to raise awareness of the political impact of being female or protest the imposition of a redefinition of womanhood based on the deeply sexist assertion that woman have different minds - different minds for fuck's sake - to men, exactly as patriarchy always claimed we do in order to force us into the boxes of their choosing, that entirely changes the basis on which women's provision are made, without being attacked as perpetrators of hate. Except that.

Although it would be useful to know how many "isolated horrors" you consider to be a fair price for male comfort, and whether you will personally volunteer yourself or your loved ones to suffer one, or just cross your fingers and hope it happens to someone else.

You need to own this. You claim concern for women, which I assume for you includes at least some female people, and yet you continue to push this false dichotomy that says female people can only be listened to and supported if they accept a genderist redefinition of their very terms of existence, and if they do not accept it they deserve no support, no respect, no one to fight for their rights as female.

But this is not true. There are many ways that both female rights could be protected and trans people supported. It is genderism, and genderism alone, that insists there can be no debate, no dialogue and no compromise.

So it is genderism, and genderism alone, that is responsible for abandoning female people to whatever horrors you believe the right holds for them.

So who cares if some abortion rights campaigners used trans inclusive language, it's hardly the issue, there might not be abortion rights in some US states soon, thats what young feminists are up against and petty distractions like this do not impress them.

So if that's "hardly the issue", if it's a "petty distraction", and knowing that it is creating this division with people who should be allies, why don't these abortion rights campaigners simply acknowledge the concerns of (and indeed existence of) female people, acknowledge there is a legitimate reason for them to be concerned by genderist redefinitions, but ask that the two(*) sides work together on the abortion issue.

Oh wait, I know why not. It's because the left is now joining the right in using access, or not, to abortion rights as a way to control female behaviour. You'll only protect abortion rights for female people if they are prepared to give up their claim to need rights or protections as female people.

• It's actually three sides: the genderists, the feminists (ie those who care about female rights, not womany-minded rights), and the conservative right that you fear. However it serves genderism well to pretend not to notice that. Here, by "the two sides" I mean the two sides that are both in favour of abortion rights but differ on the validity of female self-definition.

And it's predictably worked it way round to 'it'll never happen'. This thread is very informative as to how 'isolated' these cases are (they're not) -

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

In terms of rape crisis centres, women are self excluding from services which have become mixed sex by simply ignoring the exemptions allowed in the Equalities Act 2010. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4412984-A-woman-driven-out-of-her-therapy-group-by-a-trans-womans-presence?pg=1

Likewise activists supprting women in prisons or detention centres. like the women raped in the prison female estate by convicted sex offenders who identify as women? Any person with humanity would support them in fighting against their situation. Even the MOJ acknowledge the fear and risk which these women are subjected to by including transwomen in female prisons, even if they believe that affirmation of the transwomen's feelings are simply more important. If you know workers in the prison system who believe that convicted sex offender transwomen should be held with vulnerable women, then I am truly disgusted.

I feel truly sorry for rational transpeople who recognise the need for single sex spaces and who can balance this need with their own because their voices have been shouted down by zealots who simply will not acknowledge a need to balance the needs of different groups. If there are attacks on LGB rights, this will be because of a public realisation and revulsion of the tactics and behaviours of TRA's, not because of women fighting to retain their rights.

@Blibbyblobby

So who cares if some abortion rights campaigners used trans inclusive language, it's hardly the issue, there might not be abortion rights in some US states soon, thats what young feminists are up against and petty distractions like this do not impress them.

So if that's "hardly the issue", if it's a "petty distraction", and knowing that it is creating this division with people who should be allies, why don't these abortion rights campaigners simply acknowledge the concerns of (and indeed existence of) female people, acknowledge there is a legitimate reason for them to be concerned by genderist redefinitions, but ask that the two(*) sides work together on the abortion issue.

Oh wait, I know why not. It's because the left is now joining the right in using access, or not, to abortion rights as a way to control female behaviour. You'll only protect abortion rights for female people if they are prepared to give up their claim to need rights or protections as female people.

• It's actually three sides: the genderists, the feminists (ie those who care about female rights, not womany-minded rights), and the conservative right that you fear. However it serves genderism well to pretend not to notice that. Here, by "the two sides" I mean the two sides that are both in favour of abortion rights but differ on the validity of female self-definition.

I don't mean to be flippant or snide but a lot of the time this looks a bit like:

Republican lawmaker: We are going to legislate to ban women from having abortions
Abortions rights protesters: We need to take to the streets and fight for the right of people to have abortions
gender critical feminist: Misogynist, idiot, I'm certainly not attending a march where no-one knows what a woman is
Republican lawmaker: smiles

There isn't time for this. There is a looming crisis facing women, and predominantly young women who will be most impacted by any bans to reproductive healthcare or attacks on pay gap reporting or whatever. They don't see things the way you do and they see the gender critical movement as something which is harmful. And it's hard to believe history will be kind on those who were more interested in squabbles over semantics then actually defending the gains that women have won.

Republican lawmaker: We are going to legislate to ban women from having abortions
Abortions rights protesters: We need to take to the streets and fight for the right of people to have abortions
gender critical feminist: Misogynist, idiot, I'm certainly not attending a march where no-one knows what a woman is
Republican lawmaker: smiles

What gobsmacking nonsense. Myself and the other posters on here are constantly fundraising, signing petitions, writing to MSP's and MP's etc etc for a wide range of women's rights, including abortion rights. My most recent action was to protect safe spaces around my local sexual health centre. We do this as well as voicing concerns about women's sex based language being taken away. After all, if 'people' can have abortions, then why do men not get a deciding vote? They're people after all, even if by their biology it will never affect them. The Scottish Government have removed the word mother from all their maternity policies - you must be able to see how this muddies the waters for women's maternity rights?

This constant cut and paste nonsense of 'right wing republicans' taken straight from the US is tiresome at best.

Barleybadminton

The reproductive rights situation in the US is critical, and it could come here, there are plenty in the Tory Party and right wing press who would like to see that happens. So who cares if some abortion rights campaigners used trans inclusive language, it's hardly the issue, there might not be abortion rights in some US states soon, thats what young feminists are up against and petty distractions like this do not impress them

This comment just demonstrates you understand nothing about the British situation. There is a settled cross party consensus on abortion and it is approved of by a large majority of the population. And this has been the situation for a long time. Unlike the US we are not a religious nation.

There is no either/or - have abortion rights or face down gender ideology. Calling abortion rights ‘peoples rights’ dilutes the fact that this issue affects only women, not random people. There is no trade off between rights to abortion and the right for a female athlete to compete fairly and safely in womens sport, safe in the knowledge that she will not have to compete against a male who ‘feels like a woman inside’ - whatever that may be, and if it had any relevance to sport which it doesn’t.

You're also being extremely presumptious about women's ages on here. It smacks of the (laughably incorrect) assumption that everyone here is a middle aged, white, straight, middle class woman.

In addition, the zeal for changing language to be more 'inclusive' is detrimental to women who are affected by many issues - the Deptford Project in London was taken over by University students who could hold such luxury beliefs while shouting down the women who actually were affected by domestic and sexual violence, low pay etc etc. One of the workers there talked about being lectured about how sex work is 'empowering' while supporting a teenage girl who had been pimped out by her partner and beaten within an inch of her life.

This constant cut and paste nonsense of 'right wing republicans' taken straight from the US is tiresome at best.

Anti vaxxer Keira Bell has announced she is going to attack Gillick competency in the courts, backed by evangelical lawyers who have very much got abortion rights in their sights. This is not just a US problem.

Myself and the other posters on here are constantly fundraising, signing petitions, writing to MSP's and MP's etc etc for a wide range of women's rights, including abortion rights. My most recent action was to protect safe spaces around my local sexual health centre. We do this as well as voicing concerns about women's sex based language being taken away.

Some gender critical activists do, and all power to them. But you can't deny there is a growing swathe of the movement that is increasingly conservative and I suspect would back an anti-abortion MP if they were sufficiently hardline on trans people.

And it's hard to believe history will be kind on those who were more interested in squabbles over semantics then actually defending the gains that women have won

Indeed. And the solution is very very simple - for genderists to drop the semantics, drop this politically-motivated drive to redefine existing words that already had useful, indeed for female people vital, meanings into entirely different meanings, and create brand new words for the new frontiers of gender they are discovering so the new labels can be embraced for just what they are instead of feared because of the subjugation they embody.

Change the rhetoric back to what it was when abortion rights were fought for and won. Acknowledge that abortion is a female rights issue, that female people exist and have needs that are entirely separate to gender. It is not invalidating anyone's gender to acknowledge the physical, and in a sexist society, political, social and economic, impact of sex.

All you need to do is admit that reality, that trans women are not interchangeable with the people who were defined as women under that original definition, the one that was, after all, in use when women's rights were fought for and won and therefore the people to whom those rights really apply, and you will find not only is it possible, but it is a positive thing to acknowledge that difference and allow us to talk openly and honestly about when we should join together and when we should be side by side but different. And the right will not be able to drive a wedge between the left and feminism.

Why will the left not do that?

I suspect would back an anti-abortion MP if they were sufficiently hardline on trans people

If that comes to pass, it will be entirely because the left did not give them a better option.

Barleybadminton

If you’re worried about a dilution of effort strongly suggest you lobby your President, and anyone else who is in power to recognize:-

1/ Biological fact - men cannot turn into women and vice versa
2/ That ‘gender identity’ is an evidence free ideology that tries to persuade the gullible that being a man or a woman is down to internal feelings of femininity or masculinity rather than biological fact. It reduces men and women to stereotypes and is insulting, limiting and regressive
3/That these harmful ideas are damaging womens interests in real ways
4/ To dump gender ideology with immediate effect in legislation and culture

Then when we are all talking reality not a quasi religious belief system we can make proper policy in all areas