Womens and Equalities report on GRA to be published tomorrow 21 Dec

[Imnobody4]

twitter.com/Commonswomequ/status/1472915228392398855?t=fm9kVI9s31fOBPCnBSNYqg&s=19

Our report into the Reform of the Gender Recognition Act is being published tomorrow. Take a look at the work we have done relating to this inquiry over the past year: t.co/uOlY23nhuN t.co/l123I2UQyQ

Still haven't published my evidence. Is this usual? Sneaking it out befote Xmas - suspicious or what?

I recall another poster who used to pop up with endless word salads berating women on here for being right wing bigots.
If I recall correctly their understanding of child safeguarding and women's rights to safety and right to access same sex sport, safe showers, sleeping accommodation, prisons etc was woeful with a similar drive by cut and paste attack as is evidenced here.

MrsOvertonsWindow

Thank you I agree. Posters argument boils down to ‘We’ve got more important things to do than bother with your silly little problems’. And apart from the unpleasantly patronizing tone, their lack of info the UK situation is woeful.

@Blibbyblobby

I suspect would back an anti-abortion MP if they were sufficiently hardline on trans people

If that comes to pass, it will be entirely because the left did not give them a better option.

I'm not sure they made me do it will be viewed with much sympathy if reproductive rights are devastated and some gender critical feminists stood alongside those who did it.

There is a looming crisis facing women, and predominantly young women who will be most impacted by any bans to reproductive healthcare or attacks on pay gap reporting or whatever.

How can you report on a sex pay gap when any man can self-identify as a woman?

Do you think they'll be reporting on the difference in the pay of (female) women and male 'women'?

Yup AlwaysTawnyOwl
It's enraging when certain posters lecture us about safeguarding when their every post demonstrates a total lack of knowledge. I don't mind people not knowing - it's the pretence and using it to criticise women.

Has anyone read the interview with Caroline Noakes in the New Statesman? The word 'kind' is repeated a LOT.

• "Noakes..encourages a lot of support and kindness towards trans people." (She wasn't as friendly towards gay marriage, though, which she voted against.) *"We have to make the system kinder to trans people." *"instead of having a massive row about what constitutes a woman ...can we not just be a little bit kinder and figure out how to make life easier for trans people?" (She is practically begging women to stop asking questions, stop debating, just activate your female socialisation and be nice kind mummies! Well, sorry...you are the ones who decided that the word 'woman' is being re-defined, and we would quite like to object to that. So we're having that row.) "Everybody the whole time wants to drag it back to sort of the lowest common denominator and to wheel out, you know, the one example they can find of a trans woman who’s attacked someone. Please, you know, we can be kinder than that. We can be nicer than that.” (PLEASE, please PLEASE, stop talking about trans criminals in women's prisons and be NICE.)
• "This might sound unduly negative, but I think age will solve this in the end. I think as time goes on we become more tolerant and more understanding.”

Barleybadminton

Anti vaxxer Keira Bell has announced she is going to attack Gillick competency in the courts, backed by evangelical lawyers who have very much got abortion rights in their sights. This is not just a US problem

Oh my God. Please do not comment on UK law about which you clearly know very little. Gillick competence is NOT a blanket ability to consent or not to everything. It depends on the age of the child and the nature of the treatment. A 10 year old can consent to having their arm set in plaster but probably not to start on a course of treatment which is experimental, will result in sterility and loss of sexual function and has unknown effects on brain functioning. Consenting to an abortion/contraceptives is not the same as consenting to puberty blockers/cross sex hormones.

Anti vaxxer Keira Bell has announced she is going to attack Gillick competency in the courts,

Please can you get your facts right @barleybadminton.

Keira Bell says she's not an anti-vaxxer:
No I'm not Anti vax. But no, it's not surprising that a working class black woman who's had her body fucked for life by an institution supposed to help is distrustful of insitutions
twitter.com/KLBfax/status/1469399777091764230

She just seems a bit wary of the medical establishment, which under the circumstances is understandable.

And she's not attacking Gillick competency. Her case is about children being given an experimental medical treatment which they do not have the capacity to consent to, and not being given the mental health support which would really help them.

@WeeBisom

Has anyone read the interview with Caroline Noakes in the New Statesman? The word 'kind' is repeated a LOT.

• "Noakes..encourages a lot of support and kindness towards trans people." (She wasn't as friendly towards gay marriage, though, which she voted against.) *"We have to make the system kinder to trans people." *"instead of having a massive row about what constitutes a woman ...can we not just be a little bit kinder and figure out how to make life easier for trans people?" (She is practically begging women to stop asking questions, stop debating, just activate your female socialisation and be nice kind mummies! Well, sorry...you are the ones who decided that the word 'woman' is being re-defined, and we would quite like to object to that. So we're having that row.) "Everybody the whole time wants to drag it back to sort of the lowest common denominator and to wheel out, you know, the one example they can find of a trans woman who’s attacked someone. Please, you know, we can be kinder than that. We can be nicer than that.” (PLEASE, please PLEASE, stop talking about trans criminals in women's prisons and be NICE.)
• "This might sound unduly negative, but I think age will solve this in the end. I think as time goes on we become more tolerant and more understanding.”

Kindness is reciprocal. So is tolerance. Cornerstone of feminism: not being a doormat.

Would have been really great if the dissenting MPs on the WESC had published a minority report. They've got more than enough material to do that with, as we know.
If a minority report were out on record it would balance out the chances of this incoherent blather of a WESC report being revived as any kind of serious policy steer in future. This report is a potential threat that can be dangled over women's heads for a long time to come otherwise.

I live in a country in the UK which has next to no Conservative seats. The likelihood of my country's Government becoming Conservative is virtually nil. I still don't know who to vote for because it is the 'left wing' parties who are determined to decimate women's rights.

You've got a very simplistic view of Conservative=bad which makes me suspect you have just subbed out 'Republican' for 'Conservative'.

I'm not sure they made me do it will be viewed with much sympathy if reproductive rights are devastated and some gender critical feminists stood alongside those who did it.

Why take the risk? Why would anyone force women - I'm sorry, female people who want support for abortion rights to give up their legitimate claim to sex-based rights? To their literal existence as a meaningful political voice? To the language they need to even name and challenge the oppression they experience because they are female in a sexist society.

Seriously, why the fuck would anyone think that's an acceptable line to draw?

the one example they can find of a transwoman who's attacked someone

Totally ignoring the fact that a woman was hurt by that male person being in that space.

And the total, total lack of the trans community rising up in outrage going 'we will not stand for this, as women we support females in women's spaces, we will not tolerate this behaviour in our name and we will help with strategies to make spaces safer and more inclusive for all women, including the female ones'.

That would have helped a great deal.

Instead it's it didn't happen, well if it did happen it didn't matter, well the male matters and the harmed female is just a dirty secret that you should stop talking about because male people have needs and it makes them look bad, and just suck up the disadvantages and exclusions quietly and be kind enough to pretend they don't happen.

No. No thank you. The good will ship has sailed.

I see that we are see getting ad hom
attacks and ‘look there is a squirrel’ type posts.

Right wing vs left wing still being pushed.

I think it is time to start reminding posters and readers who supports gender ideology. Should we start with one of the recent debaters that keeps popping up on tv? An LGBT activist who goes into schools and talks to children. One who has written about intergenerational sex, focusing on the under 16s being good for all? Happy to be aligned with them?

Shall we keep posting or can we fucking stop with the ‘you are all aligned with the right wing, blah blah fucking blah blah’, you are being used by ultra conservatives, blah blah fucking blah.

Just state the facts and stop with the ad hom attacks.

backed by evangelical lawyers who have very much got abortion rights in their sights.

Please verify this. What evidence do you have that Keira Bell’s barrister is evangelical?
What evidence do you have of Keira Bell’s barrister’s beliefs about abortion?
Your use of lawyer here indicates to me that maybe you are no even in the UK yet feel very much inclined to comment on our legal system.

You do realise that barrister’s can be allocated cases and the best barristers are those who fight for their client even when they’re not ‘engaged’ in the client’s political causes.

They fight on law, facts, evidence and not on emotive manipulation. So, time to deliver on that evidence that Keira’s team have any ulterior motives and are ‘evangelical’ about anything… other than law.

@OldCrone

There is a looming crisis facing women, and predominantly young women who will be most impacted by any bans to reproductive healthcare or attacks on pay gap reporting or whatever.

How can you report on a sex pay gap when any man can self-identify as a woman?

Do you think they'll be reporting on the difference in the pay of (female) women and male 'women'?

Another example of what I'm talking about. Trans women represent somewhere between 0.1 and 0.3% of women. The impact on pay gap reporting is so low it is inconsequential. If you work at a company which underpays women the data will barely be affected by the presence of trans women, who incidentally are also reportedly paid less. How do you think young women, entering work for the first time, really feel about the older generation declaring this meaningless and doing nothing to fight to save it based on a petty semantic squabble?

This is real. Gender pay gap reporting is a powerful tool to ensure women are being paid fairly, and it has been abandoned by gender critical feminists not because the data will really be meaningless, it is still very accurate, but because it is acceptable collatoral damage in the aim to remove any social acknowledgement of people's gender indentity. The gender critical movement has decided to sacrifice gender -pay gap reporting on behalf of all women for reasons that look like little more than spite. Well a lot of women oppose that, and that's why many feminists believe the gender critical movement is harmful to women.

Or the support for Truss who appears to have abandoned gender pay gap reporting to silence from gender critical feminists, some of whom appear to fawn over her. And it won't be the last attack on women's workplace rights if Truss gets her way

Really?

Can I then ask what is the actually point of collating ‘gender gap’ pay data? It is the ‘sex pay gap’ that needs to be tracked and has been tracked historically. Data sets from males should not be included as I am quite sure you understand the difference between the basis of sex discrimination. And that it starts from birth, or even before.

If transpeople want to assess their pay situation, then petition to get that information published.

So, tell us again why male data should be included in the assessment of female’s employment statistics? How does this help females?

The impact on pay gap reporting is so low it is inconsequential. If you work at a company which underpays women the data will barely be affected by the presence of trans women, who incidentally are also reportedly paid less.

Mature transitioned males? Paid less? In their roles they have gained while being male?

@Helleofabore

backed by evangelical lawyers who have very much got abortion rights in their sights.

Please verify this. What evidence do you have that Keira Bell’s barrister is evangelical?
What evidence do you have of Keira Bell’s barrister’s beliefs about abortion?
Your use of lawyer here indicates to me that maybe you are no even in the UK yet feel very much inclined to comment on our legal system.

You do realise that barrister’s can be allocated cases and the best barristers are those who fight for their client even when they’re not ‘engaged’ in the client’s political causes.

They fight on law, facts, evidence and not on emotive manipulation. So, time to deliver on that evidence that Keira’s team have any ulterior motives and are ‘evangelical’ about anything… other than law.

Bell's lawyer Paul Conrathe is a former director of both the Christian Charismatic UnitedLife church and Premier Christian Media Trust and has a history of fighting religiously motivated court cases including attacking abortion rights: christianconcern.com/comment/women-must-be-told-the-truth-about-abortion/

Here he is fighting a case in which an ex partner tried to prevent a woman from having an abortion: www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/lawyer-in-the-news/33182.article

Can I then ask what is the actually point of collating ‘gender gap’ pay data? It is the ‘sex pay gap’ that needs to be tracked and has been tracked historically.

Honestly I find this a bit pathetic. The whole it's meaningless, the data could be out by 0.1-0.3%, whats the point of even bothering if it might include trans people. The point is that even if you don't accept trans women are women this remains a valuable, and accurate tool for tracking pay disparities between the sexes and many women don't want to see it abandoned simply to score a point in the culture war against trans women.

And was he given any choice in the cases he works on? Or is he like other barristers and takes cases he is allocated by chambers or takes cases for a fee and therefore performs to the best of his ability.

@barleybadminton this petition was highlighted by MNHQ on a pinned thread and signed by many regulars on this board -www.change.org/p/elizabeth-truss-reinstate-gender-pay-gap-reporting

There are definite issues with incorrect statistical reporting, as shown by the bizarre undermining of their own future services by those who deliberately reported their sex incorrectly in England's recent census.

But you are incorrect with your repeated statement that gender critical feminists have 'sacrificed' gender pay gap reporting.

And again, you seen unable to grasp that there are many young feminists on here too. It's quite ageist to assume the ages of the posters on here to correspond to your preconceived view of them.

Trans women represent somewhere between 0.1 and 0.3% of women. The impact on pay gap reporting is so low it is inconsequential.

How does it help the women at Credit Suisse if Philip Bunce is counted as a 'woman'?

One highly paid individual can skew the average a lot. Counting men like Bunce as 'women' is not 'inconsequential'.

I just did a quick Google, and Keira Bell's barrister is Jeremy Hyam QC at 1 Crown Office Row. He appears to be an expert in clinical negligence and human rights law. 1 crown office row has a stellar reputation. There is no indication they are an 'evangelical Christian' set. In fact, in many gender critical cases the barristers come from very liberal, progressive sets of impeccable pedigree. The only person I can find who is explicitly christian, is Keira's solicitor Paul Conranth who has run some anti-abortion cases in the past. I'm struggling to understand how Keira's case has anything to do with abortion.

How do you think young women, entering work for the first time, really feel about the older generation declaring this meaningless and doing nothing to fight to save it based on a petty semantic squabble?

So I presume that you view the insistence of males who identify as transgender to be referred to as 'women' as a 'petty semantic squabble'? Surely that's all it is. Great. We can agree on something and just call males 'men' however they identify.