The tone of this suggests further turning of the tide.. can we dare to hope!!

[loopyapp]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10322699/ALISON-BOSHOFF.html

First time I've read mainstream reporting supportive of JKR!!!

Whatever your views on the complexities of the debate (personally I don’t have a problem with the same-sex/same-gender thing - what matters is that individuals can be in the romantic/sexual relationships with the people they want to be with - or with no one - without being discriminated against or excluded, regardless of their and their partner’s respective chromosomes, genitals, or appearances), does anyone believe the DM is doing anything other than pushing the same socially conservative agenda it always has, which it knows plays well with its readership? The same agenda which hates immigration and thinks feminism has gone too far?

@Helen8220

It’s hardly surprising the DM takes this position on trans issues, they were one of the worst papers for homophobia during the 80s and 90s

Some irony then, that the Mail were one of the first newspapers to show some of the danger in proposals which are arguably the biggest threat to lesbians today.

I don’t have a problem with the same-sex/same-gender thing -

Do do you believe that there is no such thing as same sex attraction? Is that not denying the existence of homosexual and bisexual people and blatantly homophobic?

@Helen8220

It’s hardly surprising the DM takes this position on trans issues, they were one of the worst papers for homophobia during the 80s and 90s

Well in order to even use the concept of homophobia in an argument, you would have to be able to define it.

And presumably you're admitting that the Daily Mail could at least do that.

Can you define homosexual Helen?

@334bu
Do do you believe that there is no such thing as same sex attraction? Is that not denying the existence of homosexual and bisexual people and blatantly homophobic?

Homophobia is believing that same sex or same gender attraction, relationships or sexual activity are less valid, less healthy, less valuable or less acceptable than relationships between people of different sexes or genders. I have been with my partner - who, like me, is a cis gendered woman - for many years. Our relationship is no more or less valid than a relationship between a cis man and a cis woman, two trans men, a cis woman and a trans woman, etc etc. That’s what matters, the rest is just semantics

Homophobia is believing that same sex or same gender attraction, relationships or sexual activity are less valid, less healthy, less valuable or less acceptable than relationships between people of different sexes or genders.

No it isn't.

A man and a woman in a relationship are not subject to homophobia.

Semantics can be important ,if the organisation supposedly set up to advance the rights of homosexual people denies that they exist and replaced same sex attracted people with same gender attracted people.

@334bu

Semantics can be important ,if the organisation supposedly set up to advance the rights of homosexual people denies that they exist and replaced same sex attracted people with same gender attracted people.

Precisely. Protecting same-sex attraction is only necessary because it is targeted.

Replacing it with opposite sex attraction and calling it the same? Homophobic.

@Datun

Homophobia is believing that same sex or same gender attraction, relationships or sexual activity are less valid, less healthy, less valuable or less acceptable than relationships between people of different sexes or genders.

No it isn't.

A man and a woman in a relationship are not subject to homophobia.

So it a trans man walking down the streets holding hands with their cis male boyfriend gets abused or beaten up for being perceived as a gay couple then what is it if it's not homophobia?

So it a trans man walking down the streets holding hands with their cis male boyfriend gets abused or beaten up for being perceived as a gay couple then what is it if it's not homophobic

Only if the attacker thinks that they are attacking two men and not a heterosexual couple.

For a start I wouldn't be calling anyone 'cis' without checking with them first, in the same way I wouldn't assume anyone's pronouns. Identity is a matter of choice.

And yes; there is a conflict between apparent homosexuality through gender transition, choice and appearance, and actual homosexuality which is sex based. It's important to be honest about this. As with all clashes between sex and gender, one should not obscure, obliterate or devalue the lived experience, needs and specific issues of the other, because they are not the same thing.

@334bu

*So it a trans man walking down the streets holding hands with their cis male boyfriend gets abused or beaten up for being perceived as a gay couple then what is it if it's not homophobic*

Only if the attacker thinks that they are attacking two men and not a heterosexual couple.

So people in a same gender relationship can face homophobia then?

They can be in a heterosexual relationship but if their attacker mistakes them for a same sex couple and attacks them because they are in the attacker's opinion homosexual, then it is a homophobic attack. The fact they are a heterosexual couple is irrelevant, as what is important is the attacker's intent

@334bu

They can be in a heterosexual relationship but if their attacker mistakes them for a same sex couple and attacks them because they are in the attacker's opinion homosexual, then it is a homophobic attack. The fact they are a heterosexual couple is irrelevant, as what is important is the attacker's intent

So that kind of thing could happen quite a lot I imagine. For example a woman in a relationship with a trans women who refers to her partner as a wife or girlfriend might not be invited to a work function where people are invited to bring spouses. Or a trans man and cis man in a relationship might be turned down for a one bedroom flat because there are two male names on the application. I think it's quite likely same gender couples face quite a bit of homophobia. It seems a bit mean spirited to then tell them well yes you do, but you're not gay even if they and much of society views them that way..

Her Xmas book doing great

No 1 in the best sellers list

Go JKR

@barleybadminton

I think it's quite likely same gender couples face quite a bit of homophobia. It seems a bit mean spirited to then tell them well yes you do, but you're not gay even if they and much of society views them that way.

Completely agree, I have no idea what this ridiculous gatekeeping is supposed to achieve.

For example a woman in a relationship with a trans women who refers to her partner as a wife or girlfriend might not be invited to a work function where people are invited to bring spouses

This would be transphobia, not homophobia surely, as in most cases it will be obvious that their partner is a transwoman. However, if the company has a blanket ban on inviting the spouses of their homosexual employees and they have not yet met their employee's spouse, then it might be considered homophobic as the company is unaware that they are a heterosexual couple.

And yes; there is a conflict between apparent homosexuality through gender transition, choice and appearance, and actual homosexuality which is sex based. It's important to be honest about this.

What conflict? Also I’m not sure what choice has to do with it, I’ve always been very dubious about the argument that gay people have to be accepted because they were ‘born that way’ or they can’t ‘help it’. Same sex (or gender) relationships should be accepted and valued purely because (to repeat myself) they are just as valuable and valid as opposite sex/gender relationships. If I face discrimination because I’m in a relationship with a woman is that my fault because I’m bisexual and so freely chose a woman as my life partner rather than a man?

Should a woman be attacked by a person with a penis for sexually rejecting them? When both of them identify as lesbians?

Should lesbians be able to define themselves as females attracted to females without fear of violence or accusations of bigotry?

Completely agree, I have no idea what this ridiculous gatekeeping is supposed to achieve.

Ridiculous!!!?? Are you saying that same sex relationships don't exist and if they do they are the same as a same gender relationship? This is the very epitome of homophobia!

barleybadminton

Your answers are tedious. And predictable.

If someone perceives you as same-sex, even if you're not, then it's homophobia based on their perception, not based on your sex.

The same way discrimination can happen if someone perceives you to be disabled, or perceives you to be nonwhite.

But if a man and a woman are in a relationship, and everyone perceives them as such, irrespective of their gender identity, they are not homosexual.

This is just so basic it's not even worth talking about.

And Helen8220 of course all relationships are valid. But homosexual relationship are based on same-sex attraction. That's it. It doesn't make them less valid. It does make them subject to homophobia.

Homophobia is a reaction to same-sex relationships/attraction.

Strewth.

So if a religious person scolds a lesbian for not being in a relationship with a male it’s homophobia, but if the LGBT ‘community’ scolds a lesbian for not considering the same thing they somehow have the moral high ground?

Hi Helen, good to see you again.

Do you think those people who are exclusively same sex attracted should be supported by LGBT orgs such as Stonewall? Are those relationships just as valid as those between people who aren’t fussed about the sex of their partner as long as their “gender” turns them on?

Do you think lesbians should be able to specify on a lesbian dating app that they’re only interested in other biologically female partners if that’s their sexual orientation? Without being booted off the app?

Do you think people who are exclusively same-sex attracted should be able to be out and proud about their sexual orientation, or should they have to keep it quiet in case it hurts trans people’s feelings?

Just trying to get a feel for exactly how valid, healthy, valuable and acceptable you think relationships between exclusively same-sex attracted people are

@334bu

*For example a woman in a relationship with a trans women who refers to her partner as a wife or girlfriend might not be invited to a work function where people are invited to bring spouses*

This would be transphobia, not homophobia surely, as in most cases it will be obvious that their partner is a transwoman. However, if the company has a blanket ban on inviting the spouses of their homosexual employees and they have not yet met their employee's spouse, then it might be considered homophobic as the company is unaware that they are a heterosexual couple.

I think that this is the first time I have ever seen the word transphobic applied to something that is actually transphobic. I had to read it twice.