Page 3 | Rapes committed by women - JKR got me thinking

anotherchocolate · 13/12/2021 21:39

Because it's a lie.

littlbrowndog · 13/12/2021 21:46

Oh cripes sali Hughes’s

NeverDropYourMooncup · 13/12/2021 21:55

You don't need spaces away from men if women are recorded as being rapists.

That's why.

PermanentTemporary · 13/12/2021 22:07

It is really difficult (certainly for a casual googler) to find statistics on sex crimes committed by women. Possibly because there are so few - last stats i saw were 128 women in prison for sex crimes as opposed to over 13000 men. So if they had information on women convicted of each specific sex crime, there would be a risk of the information identifying individuals.

This issue is an example of why accurate information should be held somewhere though. God knows there are violent and sexually motivated women in existence. Women are much more likely to murder their children than their partners, for example, presumably due to access, the vulnerability of the children and not being strong enough to kill men as a rule. The numbers are small but not insignificant. There are people starting to assume that every violent woman must be a transwoman which is obviously crap.

334bu · 13/12/2021 22:25

Professor Alice Sullivan was given statistics by the MOJ.that during the period 2012-2018 436 " women" were prosecuted for rape in England and Wales. Given how rare the numbers of women accused of abetting the commission of rape are, it might be possible to assume that the vast majority of these 436 were born male. It should also be noted that this number would appear to indicate that this group are far more likely to be sexual offenders than their female counterparts.

PermanentTemporary · 13/12/2021 22:29

But we don't know that. This is what I find so frustrating - we don't have clear information whether these people are male or female even for a sex crime which by definition uses a sexual organ as a weapon! Yes my assumption has to be that all but a handful of that 436 are male. But I don't know that. I am being deliberately prevented from knowing that.

Nellodee · 13/12/2021 22:36

I did some research about female sexual violence in prisons a while back and I understand that a large proportion of female perpetrated forced penetration is motivated by the retrieval of contraband hidden on the body. It's a very different crime to rape in my opinion.

WeeBisom · 13/12/2021 22:39

Someone earlier on said it was 'outdated' and 'sociopathic' that the law of England defines rape as 'penetration by a penis'. In fact, the law is fairly recent - it was updated in 2003 with the overhaul of the sexual offences act. The reason that rape is confined to assaults by penises is because the legislature consulted with feminist and women's groups, and it was seen to be a feminist decision to confine rape to sexual crimes involving penises rather than having different degrees of rape. It was agreed that rape was a particularly heinous crime, and to label someone a 'rapist' was a very grave thing, and so it was best to reserve the label 'rape' for this very specific crime. It was not meant in any way to diminish the trauma of women who suffered sexual assault, and indeed this is reflected in the sentencing guidance. So it was done with the best of intentions in collaboration with feminist groups and female members of the public. Overall, there was great enthusiasm to have the term 'rape' apply to just this crime.

It's a bit harsh to say that a carefully considered law, formulated in collaboration with women, is 'sociopathic'. One could argue that the American style of 'degrees of rape' is equally traumatic, as it suggests that certain rapes are 'higher' or 'more important' than others. A rape victim could also very well argue that penetration by a penis is qualitatively and societally different than other kinds of penetration, given its cultural meaning, associations with male dominance, and potentially grave side effects such as pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease. I'm just ever so slightly tired of the English approach being castigated as 'wrong' when it is just guilty of not comporting to the American standard of criminology.

AnyOldPrion · 13/12/2021 22:39

Why does it matter if crime stats say women rape?

For me, I find it downright hateful, after all the violence and hate directed towards women by men, that stats will now say 'women are doing it to women'. That makes me so damn angry. But is feeling offended by this, on principle, enough?

On crime stats and recording... Seth Abramson (I know) on Twitter commented that the fact the perpetrator has a penis will come up in the court case. So the court will know they are not biologically female.

Also, if we say a woman raped another, doesn't that also immediately tell us the rapist was transgender?

I think perhaps the point is that the sex of the perpetrators of other crimes cannot be determined in this way. There is an uptick in “women’s” violent crime as well, but we have no way of determining the sex of the perpetrators and therefore the statistics are useless for telling us what is actually occurring.

Despite the slight error margin created by joint enterprise, the fact that there is a significant increase in rape allegedly committed by women demonstrates clearly what is happening here. It is therefore a useful tool to feminists.

It’s also confirmation of the Swedish study that showed that transitioned men do not behave like women in terms of criminal offending patterns.

So perhaps it could be argued that it doesn’t really matter if rape is recorded under the wrong sex as the sex of the perpetrator is very likely to be male. However, I think we have to assume exactly the same thing is happening with other crimes and using rape (with it’s particularly unpleasant connotations) is a powerful way to demonstrate that what is currently happening is the falsification of crime statistics.

And finally, if women attack women as often as men do, then why would women need single sex spaces? That is a common transactivist argument for putting men in women’s prisons. Women attack women too, so it’s no more unsafe for women if we move men in there with them. We need to have an accurate idea of criminal offending. Otherwise, collecting statistics is a complete waste of time and money. Indeed collecting false statistics, as currently occurs, is both a waste of time and money AND creates a source of disinformation that is now being used actively to promote men’s rights.

Why do you think they’ve pushed so hard to have crime statistics misreported at exactly the same time they’ve been pushing for access to women’s spaces? It’s a perfect way to obscure the facts.

Had they begun recording “claimed gender identity” in addition to sex, back in 2009, then by now we’d have had a very useful and clear record of criminal offending rates in this group. As it is, we don’t have any idea at all. I am cynical enough to believe there’s a reason why transactivists actively don’t want those stats recorded.

WeeBisom · 13/12/2021 22:39

Someone earlier on said it was 'outdated' and 'sociopathic' that the law of England defines rape as 'penetration by a penis'. In fact, the law is fairly recent - it was updated in 2003 with the overhaul of the sexual offences act. The reason that rape is confined to assaults by penises is because the legislature consulted with feminist and women's groups, and it was seen to be a feminist decision to confine rape to sexual crimes involving penises rather than having different degrees of rape. It was agreed that rape was a particularly heinous crime, and to label someone a 'rapist' was a very grave thing, and so it was best to reserve the label 'rape' for this very specific crime. It was not meant in any way to diminish the trauma of women who suffered sexual assault, and indeed this is reflected in the sentencing guidance. So it was done with the best of intentions in collaboration with feminist groups and female members of the public. Overall, there was great enthusiasm to have the term 'rape' apply to just this crime.

It's a bit harsh to say that a carefully considered law, formulated in collaboration with women, is 'sociopathic'. One could argue that the American style of 'degrees of rape' is equally traumatic, as it suggests that certain rapes are 'higher' or 'more important' than others. A rape victim could also very well argue that penetration by a penis is qualitatively and societally different than other kinds of penetration, given its cultural meaning, associations with male dominance, and potentially grave side effects such as pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease. I'm just ever so slightly tired of the English approach being castigated as 'wrong' when it is just guilty of not comporting to the American standard of criminology.

Animood · 13/12/2021 22:43

Yes this is what OP means.

We read "93% of rapes are committed by men and 7% committed by women".

And we know it means 7% of rapes are committed by trans women.

So we, Inadvertently, have data about the number of trans women committing rapes.

Which is believe is useful to know!

timeisnotaline · 13/12/2021 22:48

@Snowdancer385

"I thought only a person with penis can commit rape in England. Thank their countries have different rules."

There are countries where marital rape is not legally considered rape.

Does that mean it's not rape for a man to rape his wife in those countries, if it's not in that country's legal definition of rape?

Really? That’s your argument? Are you always completely unable to grasp the concept of a legal definition vs a common usage one, or just when women’s rights and safety are involved.

I think there’s a legitimate argument for calling forced penetration with an object (ie yes female rape but mostly again male sexual assault) some category of rape as per the common usage of the word, but am very happy to retain the distinction of the unique male crime of ‘rape: forcefully/non consensually penetrated someone with his penis’ so we know how prevalent it is. Good data is power. Better results for women doesn’t seem to be your goal though.
*not the exact legal definition, I’m not a lawyer.

RepentMotherfucker · 13/12/2021 22:56

@WeeBisom

Someone earlier on said it was 'outdated' and 'sociopathic' that the law of England defines rape as 'penetration by a penis'. In fact, the law is fairly recent - it was updated in 2003 with the overhaul of the sexual offences act. The reason that rape is confined to assaults by penises is because the legislature consulted with feminist and women's groups, and it was seen to be a feminist decision to confine rape to sexual crimes involving penises rather than having different degrees of rape. It was agreed that rape was a particularly heinous crime, and to label someone a 'rapist' was a very grave thing, and so it was best to reserve the label 'rape' for this very specific crime. It was not meant in any way to diminish the trauma of women who suffered sexual assault, and indeed this is reflected in the sentencing guidance. So it was done with the best of intentions in collaboration with feminist groups and female members of the public. Overall, there was great enthusiasm to have the term 'rape' apply to just this crime.

It's a bit harsh to say that a carefully considered law, formulated in collaboration with women, is 'sociopathic'. One could argue that the American style of 'degrees of rape' is equally traumatic, as it suggests that certain rapes are 'higher' or 'more important' than others. A rape victim could also very well argue that penetration by a penis is qualitatively and societally different than other kinds of penetration, given its cultural meaning, associations with male dominance, and potentially grave side effects such as pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease. I'm just ever so slightly tired of the English approach being castigated as 'wrong' when it is just guilty of not comporting to the American standard of criminology.

It's not 'a bit harsh' it's DARVO.

I wouldn't waste your carefully considered points on this PP. If there was ever one for the 'don't roll in shit with a pig' advice it's this one.

PickAChew · 14/12/2021 00:05

@Snowdancer385

"Also, if we say a woman raped another, doesn't that also immediately tell us the rapist was transgender? (The only group who identify as women but are also bepenised)."

Or maybe you should just not define rape based on the ridiculously narrow and regressive definition in the UK law that classifies many forms of sexual assault as "not technically rape".

Or maybe you shouldn't imply that the impact of being forcefully penetrated by a penis is no worse than other forms of sexual assault.

Having your arse felt while wearing a red dress is really bloody demeaning but can't get you pregnant. You might feel genuine shame and justified disgust at the act, but at least your life isn't changed potentially permanently.

PickAChew · 14/12/2021 00:12

@PermanentTemporary

It is really difficult (certainly for a casual googler) to find statistics on sex crimes committed by women. Possibly because there are so few - last stats i saw were 128 women in prison for sex crimes as opposed to over 13000 men. So if they had information on women convicted of each specific sex crime, there would be a risk of the information identifying individuals.

This issue is an example of why accurate information should be held somewhere though. God knows there are violent and sexually motivated women in existence. Women are much more likely to murder their children than their partners, for example, presumably due to access, the vulnerability of the children and not being strong enough to kill men as a rule. The numbers are small but not insignificant. There are people starting to assume that every violent woman must be a transwoman which is obviously crap.

Which suggests that accurate, sex based, reporting should be as important to the trans community as the rest of us.

Enough4me · 14/12/2021 00:21

I subscribe to The Times and, whenever there's a report about male crime to girls & women, some men post in a defensive tactic:

More men suffer violence than women
Not all men are violent
Women can be liars
Men need support as can be stressed and suicidal
Feminists create tension and misunderstanding for men
Male humour is taken too seriously
Women are bad too, look at Myra Hindley...they would love to say women are bad as the stats prove this!

snowdropsandcrocuses · 14/12/2021 02:49

An interesting though admittedly anecdotal fact. I have worked the last 3 years investigating rapes. I have heard the stories of hundreds of women, many don't go on to support prosecution, many more are unlucky in that the judicial system fails them but here is what I can tell you.

Of those hundreds of women that I and my colleagues have interviewed I have NEVER received a report of sexual assault by penetration with a female suspect on either gender, nor have I ever investigated a report of rape by joint enterprise involving a woman.

I suspect, the very few cases we get involving joint enterprise will be either Child abuse related or where the female suspect has been coerced/abused herself but as I say, in three years I have never heard a single report of this happening.

FWIW I haven't investigated or received any reports about trans women raping either.

My point is, that rape is very much a male offence at the time of writing. Men are raping women daily. Constantly. In all that time, I would say less than 2% of reports are related to stranger rapes. They are guys that have been met on a night out, first dates in internet dating, friend's partner, relatives and the highest proportion of the cases we hear about are from long term relationships. They are our neighbours, our friends, our relatives and colleagues. It is horrifying the level
Of sexual offending that goes on.

That is the truth as far as I have witnessed. And I was looking at rape reports nearly every day for the last three years. Not a single woman suspect in all that time. That's the truth.

Unmerited · 14/12/2021 03:11

@RedToothBrush

I'm just watching "David Baddiel: Social, Media, Anger and Us" on BBC2 now.

Its utterly fascinating and makes me raise questions about the whole subject of identity and politics. EVERYONE concerned about what is going on with TRAs should watch it.

Its a HUGELY important documentary.

Really? It seems a bit biased to me, a personal project. I thought the BBC might commission an objective reporter to run a series on social media and it’s many facets. It’s an important subject. So far the people who are commissioned to talk about it appear to be those who were quite used to having a nice big platform with an adoring audience, and no pesky opinions from the little people.

Unmerited · 14/12/2021 03:13

I’m pretty disgusted by the Twitter responses to and about JKR. The worst are actually from women. They bandy about TERF as though it’s not an offensive term. Honestly, they shock me and I feel embarrassed for them.

CheeseMmmm · 14/12/2021 06:20

England and Wales law definition of rape is certainly different to other countries with similar approach to sex offences.

Rape is non consensual penetration with penis.
Men, women, girls, boys can be raped.
The law does not differentiate victims.

Women and girls can be prosecuted for rape if they were actively involved in the offence being committed.
There will also be a man or men who carried out the rape.

Women/girls being charged etc with rape on that basis is rare. Historical data (before all this) shows that it's very uncommon.

The stats for women being prosecuted, convicted etc for rape have massively increased.

If it was females being done for active involvement with a male (s) committing rape.

That would be a massive change, very worrying. There would be media concern. Govt concern. What has changed? Why are women suddenly doing this much more? What can be done to address this huge sudden worrying change?

Obviously. Couple articles s few years ago in tabloids shock women stats. Then nothing. That is very odd indeed.

CatherinaJTV · 14/12/2021 06:46

@Linguini

If a rapist identifies as a woman he can be housed in a woman's prison. With vulnerable women, who can't escape from the rapist.

Excellent point: WHY can women in prison not be protected from other violent offenders? Why don't people argue for prison reform that a) puts fewer women in prison and that b) offers a structure protecting inmates from violence?

Surely that would be desirable?

Velvian · 14/12/2021 07:05

Why aren't perpetrators recorded as male or female? That would eliminate the confusion, surely?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 14/12/2021 07:06

Excellent point: WHY can women in prison not be protected from other violent offenders? Why don't people argue for prison reform that a) puts fewer women in prison and that b) offers a structure protecting inmates from violence?

Surely that would be desirable?

Funny you say that. There was a meeting about women's prison welfare, advocating for placing fewer women in prison in the first place. Back in October.

It got protested by trans rights activists who stood outside trying to intimidate attendees, and yelled about toilets.

Motheroftigers · 14/12/2021 07:11

Because its just not true OP.

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 14/12/2021 07:12

Funny you say that. There was a meeting about women's prison welfare, advocating for placing fewer women in prison in the first place. Back in October.

It got protested by trans rights activists who stood outside trying to intimidate attendees, and yelled about toilets.

Sounds about right….