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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Council of Europe's report on hate against LGBTI people in Europe completely misrepresents gender critical feminism

108 replies

WeeBisom · 13/12/2021 17:39

So the council of Europe wrote a report, and they don't like gender critical feminists very much. Report is here;

assembly.coe.int/LifeRay/EGA/Pdf/TextesProvisoires/2021/20210921-RisingHateLGBTI-EN.pdf

The report is really weird because they get so much of the basics wrong. The the report defines an 'anti gender' stance as "reject[ing] the notion that gender is a social construct, distinct from (biological) sex and not based on a binary." I'm not sure what the 'binary' part is supposed to mean ( I've always thought discussions of the binary is a red herring), but I DON"T reject the idea that gender is a social construct that is distinct from biological sex. So I am supposedly 'anti-gender' by being a gender critical feminist, and yet they can't even correctly describe what it is I supposedly believe.

The report then says that the gender critical movements "work to maintain unequal gender relations in the name of “tradition”, “family values”, “Christian values”, or a so-called “natural order”. Attacks on abortion, access to contraception, comprehensive sexuality education, same-sex marriage, gender, legal gender recognition, access to transition-related medical care, trans and intersex persons’ participation in sport, and ratification and implementation of the Istanbul Convention all form part of this agenda." But this seems to throw many disparate movements together. Gender critical feminists don't believe in christian values or the natural order. They aren't trying to get rid of contraception, abortion or sex education. It's like the report doesn't quite know what its target actually is.

Later on, the authors sulkily report that a self ID law failed in Spain because it didn't get a majority in Parliament despite 70 trans people undergoing hunger strike. The fault is laid at the feet of gender critical feminists " that portray trans people as a threat to society, and in particular to women, deny the identities of trans and non-binary people, suggest that they cannot be trusted to know who they are, and depict parents who are supportive of their trans children as criminals."

They then describe the UK gender critical movement:
"In the United Kingdom, anti-trans rhetoric, arguing that sex is immutable and gender identities not valid, has also been gaining baseless and concerning credibility, at the expense of both trans people’s civil liberties and women’s and children’s rights."

So wait...it's anti trans to say that sex is immutable (meaning unchanging.) But earlier, the report said that it was ANTI gender to reject that sex and gender are separate and different. Gender critical feminists say that gender could change, but sex certainly cannot. So why is it anti-trans to believe the straightforward scientific fact that human beings cannot change their sex? And we also have that weasel word 'valid' pop up. I imagine what they mean is we refuse to believe that a male declaring himself to be a woman just IS a woman in every relevant sense of the word. But that again is because of the sex/gender distinction!

They go on: "The ‘gender-critical’ movement, which wrongly portrays trans rights as posing a particular threat to cisgender women and girls, has played a significant role in this process, notably since the 2018 public consultation on updating the Gender Recognition Act 2004 for England and Wales. In parallel, trans rights organisations have faced vitriolic media campaigns, in which trans women especially are vilified and misrepresented. The gender- critical campaign – which continues to gain momentum, power and financial support – has been instrumental in creating a situation in which legal gender recognition processes still require a clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and remain inaccessible to non-binary people and anyone under 18."

Most chillingly, the report has a recommendation for politicians; "Such anti-trans narratives, wrongly portraying trans rights as a threat to women and to others’ rights and insisting on binary categorisations of sex and gender that do not correspond to lived realities, are becoming increasingly pervasive in Europe. Effective criminal and anti-discrimination legislation are more crucial than ever in this context."

I don't know about you, but I'm a little insulted that gender critical feminist are supposedly this massive, evil threat and yet they can't even be bothered to work out what it is we actually believe and campaign for. I imagine that they have to keep spreading lies that we are all fundie christians or else other people will realise we are speaking perfect common sense.

For instance, they continually repeat the lie that trans rights are not a threat to women's rights. Well, if women's right encompass the right to single sex spaces, but any male gets to declare he is of the female sex then there clearly IS a clash. I don't know why they continue to deny that there is a clash here. Simply clapping their hands on their ears and going lalala there's no conflict doesn't actually make the conflict go away.!

OP posts:
OldCrone · 13/12/2021 20:54

The whole point of being trans is that trans women aren't "men".

Do you mean that a "trans woman" is a female person who identifies as trans? That's not how most people use that term.

OldCrone · 13/12/2021 20:56

True, I was using collective you in referring to "gender critical feminists", i.e. the anti-trans movement you are part of.

I'm not part of any anti-trans movement. I think you'll find that most people here believe that trans people should have the same rights as everyone else. Do you think that is anti-trans?

Sophoclesthefox · 13/12/2021 20:57

I wonder if you’re aware that “negative sweeping generalisations” are against site rules, snowdancer?

Yes, even for people that you think are just awful.

It’s just that there’s no way of having any kind of civilised conversation when it’s happening.

Snowdancer385 · 13/12/2021 20:59

@OldCrone

True, I was using collective you in referring to "gender critical feminists", i.e. the anti-trans movement you are part of.

I'm not part of any anti-trans movement. I think you'll find that most people here believe that trans people should have the same rights as everyone else. Do you think that is anti-trans?

That's like saying you believe gay people should have the same rights as everyone else while opposing gay marriage.

Because they have "the same right" to marry someone of the opposite sex.

No, if you don't support trans women being treated the same way as cis women, you do not support "the same rights".

OldCrone · 13/12/2021 21:02

Can you explain who you are talking about when you say 'trans women', Snowdancer385?

Snowdancer385 · 13/12/2021 21:02

This reply has been deleted

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Sophoclesthefox · 13/12/2021 21:03

I most certainly do not.

Snowdancer385 · 13/12/2021 21:04

@OldCrone

Can you explain who you are talking about when you say 'trans women', Snowdancer385?
No, I don't think I'll humor your disingenuous time-wasting nonsense.
AssassinatedBeauty · 13/12/2021 21:05

That pesky "you" again. It very much seems like you are intent on accusing individual posters of posting threads that make sweeping negative generalisations about trans people. When that is not the case. Anything posted like that, that accused all transpeople of the types of things you've just said, would be deleted and likely the poster banned if they kept doing it.

Waitwhat23 · 13/12/2021 21:10

The reason your deeply uncivil posts have been left unreported is so they are left as evidence of the kind of discourse which is typical of the anti women posters who come here to rant and rage at the women who just won't do as they're told. It's incredibly useful for the many lurkers and certainly not in your favour.

Single sex spaces are an allowed exemption in the Equality Act and rational people know that there are good reasons for single sex rape crisis services (as one example). Are you actually arguing against women being able to access single sex rape crisis services?

Snowdancer385 · 13/12/2021 21:13

@AssassinatedBeauty

That pesky "you" again. It very much seems like you are intent on accusing individual posters of posting threads that make sweeping negative generalisations about trans people. When that is not the case. Anything posted like that, that accused all transpeople of the types of things you've just said, would be deleted and likely the poster banned if they kept doing it.
In this case "you" refers to this specific section on Mumsnet, after you claimed that generalizations are against site rules.

I was pointing out that there seems to be an unspoken "unless it's about trans people" clause.

Eyesofdisarray · 13/12/2021 21:13

You sound very angry Snowdancer and you appear to be twisting things.
You seem determined to shout others down and its not much if a debate.
I support rights for transpeople; I just don't want to give up mine.
And small request: desist from using "cis"- i find it offensive and so do many others

DecayedStrumpet · 13/12/2021 21:16

Snowdancer, did you mean to say that sex segregation was 'inherently an aspect of gender rather than sex' or was that a typo?

If you don't understand why women sometimes need sex (not gender) segregated spaces, maybe you could ask them?
'Everyday Sexism' is an interesting read if you want to get a feel for how males have been treating us since we were kids.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 13/12/2021 21:17

Snowdancer

Am women entitled to specify that they are only interested in dating other, biological women in their dating profiles on websites, without being either banned or personally abused?

bordermidgebite · 13/12/2021 21:20

I support trans and none trans people being treated the exact same way

And sometimes that means the two sexes are handled separately. So both sexes get single sex spaces

Helleofabore · 13/12/2021 21:22

That's funny considering you have threads generalizing trans women as "paraphilic autogynephilic rapists" pretty much every other day.

Really? Hyperbole much?

Or maybe you would like to post the evidence of this. Post up the links.

Otherwise, everyone can see you are simply here to berate, denigrate and shame women who are discussing and campaigning to uphold the rights of all females when they come into conflict with the rights set aside for a subset of males.

AdaFuckingShelby · 13/12/2021 21:23

This reply has been deleted

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AssassinatedBeauty · 13/12/2021 21:23

@Snowdancer385 you are now confusing me with Sophoclesthefox, unsurprisingly given that your anger towards women here seems to be clouding your ability to distinguish who is saying what.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 13/12/2021 21:26

@GrumpyPanda

If I may comment on this as a long-time lurker but fairly new actual poster on MN. I'm not a Brit and based outside of the UK; I also happen to be a social scientist specializing among others in Eastern Europe, so am very much aware of the debate (research and policy level) around populist movements in the region. I am afraid that - much as I share many of the views and concerns if this board - British GC feminists aren't doing themselves any favours with some of the terminology they tend to use. I am still taken aback whenever I see the phrase "gender ideology" used here to mean "gender identity ideology" or "transgender ideology". The fact is that for most of Europe, "gender ideology" is an established term in a quite different discourse just as OPs initial quote describes it - a world view of biological essentialism in which sex and gender are one and the same and gender isn't socially constructed and hence, opposing "gender ideology" is synonymous with opposing "feminazis", women's rights and LGB rights as well as the T. It's a slogan that gets used all the time by Germany's AFD as well as the loathsome clowns in Poland or the Putin stooges who rolled back domestic violence legislation (essentially decriminalizing "first time" violent abuse). Trans issues, visible as I know they have become in the British setting, are barely visible in much of the region so very few people tend to see them as a separate phenomenon. As to other countries in Western Europe, the debate I suspect is where British discourse was, say, pre-2015 - media sympathy and curiosity about the T, especially driven by the youth pages/online editions of major newspapers, by wokerati in the cultural establishment, but really nothing so far approximating the institutional power of Stonewall etc - and hence, little to no backlash so far.

All this to say that- I get where that CoE report is coming from, given that GC is essentially a fringe phenomenon for most of what it covers, where it covers it. Yes, they are getting it completely arse backwards. But also, I can see this happening again, and again, and again, and it would really help to find some different GC vocabulary because slogans like "gender woo" - which I've seen on here quite a bit, understandably - are just completely tainted outside of the British context. Not claiming I have any ready-made solution myself. Obviously for any social movement arriving at shared terms and understandings is immensely difficult. But at least a little more awareness of the problems with the existing one might be a start.

Thank you for this post. It was very helpful for me.

I think I'll start using gender identity ideology or perhaps gender essentialism.

Helleofabore · 13/12/2021 21:27

In this case "you" refers to this specific section on Mumsnet, after you claimed that generalizations are against site rules.

I was pointing out that there seems to be an unspoken "unless it's about trans people" clause.

Perhaps you have been led to believe something very different from the reality over on a different social media platform.

The reality is that trans activist posts tend to be treated with more leniency than feminist posts. Except when activists are making completely ridiculous and unfounded negative generalisations. Those tend to not stand.

Sophoclesthefox · 13/12/2021 21:27

[quote AssassinatedBeauty]@Snowdancer385 you are now confusing me with Sophoclesthefox, unsurprisingly given that your anger towards women here seems to be clouding your ability to distinguish who is saying what. [/quote]
I have a feeling that we’ve all merged into one Universal Bad Mummy Grin

You can be me, if you like, I fancy a bit of a change up.

Helleofabore · 13/12/2021 21:33

It is always astonishing how infuriated some people can get with women saying no. With women not conforming to the rules set by males. With women who don’t bow to emotional manipulation.

Feminists are not in charge of mothering the world. Whoever spread the word that feminists were responsible for fixing the woes of any male (whatever that male’s gender), was telling a massive fucking whopping great lie!

Women say no! Get over it.

Linguini · 13/12/2021 21:39

You see trans women as "paraphilic fetishists and predators" and say as much, do you not?

I presume you are referring to the thread discussing paraphilias, where men who have paraphilias are mentioned and there's no mention of transwomen.
You must have read "men with paraphilias" and thought "transwomen" yourself, which is.... interesting.

Also brings to mind:
Gender ideology myth and thought terminating cliche number 14
"Any mention of AGP means you are calling all transwomen perverts/rapists/fetishists, delete as appropriate'.

Well it's a step up from myth number 9
"AGP does not exist" so well done on that.

You want to exclude trans women from any and all women's spaces, do you not?

I also want to exclude under 18s from entering the cinema for films for 18+.
You are perfectly happy to exclude transmen from women's spaces. (I'm ok with transmen in women's spaces) so exclusion on your terms is "allowed" yes?
I'm sure you'd be alright with excluding all sorts of certain groups of people, from all sorts of things where it's not right for them to be there, but it's not alright for us.

Helleofabore · 13/12/2021 21:47

Date whoever you want, no one is going to bother to check whether or not the women you date are trans.

Just keep your unsolicited commentary on trans women's gender or sex to your own goddamn self. We don't fucking want to hear it, anymore than you'd want to hear a cishet man calling you a "dyke" or a "genetic dead end".

Which is doubly ironic, since baby-making as women's biological purpose is something your own ideology embraces now.

And yeah, if you who can't treat other LGBTQ people with basic decency and respect, then you are not fucking welcome at Pride.

Well that is an interesting post…

And odd really that you have again mixed up the people who state that the only purpose of women is to have babies, with feminists who state that our female bodies produce children, if we choose and if we are medical able to, but that being female is never limited to this task. However, our bodies are targets for negative sexist discrimination while needing consideration for the differences to male bodies.

That you have it all confused is not unusual. I see many extreme trans activists who get it mixed up. Of course, it is a timely reminder that there are trans activists who are working to progress trans rights without conflicting with those rights needed for females.

It is the extremist activists that seek to twist and misrepresent the interests and opinions of feminists.

AdaFuckingShelby · 13/12/2021 21:51

What was I deleted for? Trans women are not women. Black is not white. Up is not down. No one can control what anyone else thinks. Some males are predatory. None of that is untrue or hateful. Please reinstate my post.