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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Council of Europe's report on hate against LGBTI people in Europe completely misrepresents gender critical feminism

108 replies

WeeBisom · 13/12/2021 17:39

So the council of Europe wrote a report, and they don't like gender critical feminists very much. Report is here;

assembly.coe.int/LifeRay/EGA/Pdf/TextesProvisoires/2021/20210921-RisingHateLGBTI-EN.pdf

The report is really weird because they get so much of the basics wrong. The the report defines an 'anti gender' stance as "reject[ing] the notion that gender is a social construct, distinct from (biological) sex and not based on a binary." I'm not sure what the 'binary' part is supposed to mean ( I've always thought discussions of the binary is a red herring), but I DON"T reject the idea that gender is a social construct that is distinct from biological sex. So I am supposedly 'anti-gender' by being a gender critical feminist, and yet they can't even correctly describe what it is I supposedly believe.

The report then says that the gender critical movements "work to maintain unequal gender relations in the name of “tradition”, “family values”, “Christian values”, or a so-called “natural order”. Attacks on abortion, access to contraception, comprehensive sexuality education, same-sex marriage, gender, legal gender recognition, access to transition-related medical care, trans and intersex persons’ participation in sport, and ratification and implementation of the Istanbul Convention all form part of this agenda." But this seems to throw many disparate movements together. Gender critical feminists don't believe in christian values or the natural order. They aren't trying to get rid of contraception, abortion or sex education. It's like the report doesn't quite know what its target actually is.

Later on, the authors sulkily report that a self ID law failed in Spain because it didn't get a majority in Parliament despite 70 trans people undergoing hunger strike. The fault is laid at the feet of gender critical feminists " that portray trans people as a threat to society, and in particular to women, deny the identities of trans and non-binary people, suggest that they cannot be trusted to know who they are, and depict parents who are supportive of their trans children as criminals."

They then describe the UK gender critical movement:
"In the United Kingdom, anti-trans rhetoric, arguing that sex is immutable and gender identities not valid, has also been gaining baseless and concerning credibility, at the expense of both trans people’s civil liberties and women’s and children’s rights."

So wait...it's anti trans to say that sex is immutable (meaning unchanging.) But earlier, the report said that it was ANTI gender to reject that sex and gender are separate and different. Gender critical feminists say that gender could change, but sex certainly cannot. So why is it anti-trans to believe the straightforward scientific fact that human beings cannot change their sex? And we also have that weasel word 'valid' pop up. I imagine what they mean is we refuse to believe that a male declaring himself to be a woman just IS a woman in every relevant sense of the word. But that again is because of the sex/gender distinction!

They go on: "The ‘gender-critical’ movement, which wrongly portrays trans rights as posing a particular threat to cisgender women and girls, has played a significant role in this process, notably since the 2018 public consultation on updating the Gender Recognition Act 2004 for England and Wales. In parallel, trans rights organisations have faced vitriolic media campaigns, in which trans women especially are vilified and misrepresented. The gender- critical campaign – which continues to gain momentum, power and financial support – has been instrumental in creating a situation in which legal gender recognition processes still require a clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and remain inaccessible to non-binary people and anyone under 18."

Most chillingly, the report has a recommendation for politicians; "Such anti-trans narratives, wrongly portraying trans rights as a threat to women and to others’ rights and insisting on binary categorisations of sex and gender that do not correspond to lived realities, are becoming increasingly pervasive in Europe. Effective criminal and anti-discrimination legislation are more crucial than ever in this context."

I don't know about you, but I'm a little insulted that gender critical feminist are supposedly this massive, evil threat and yet they can't even be bothered to work out what it is we actually believe and campaign for. I imagine that they have to keep spreading lies that we are all fundie christians or else other people will realise we are speaking perfect common sense.

For instance, they continually repeat the lie that trans rights are not a threat to women's rights. Well, if women's right encompass the right to single sex spaces, but any male gets to declare he is of the female sex then there clearly IS a clash. I don't know why they continue to deny that there is a clash here. Simply clapping their hands on their ears and going lalala there's no conflict doesn't actually make the conflict go away.!

OP posts:
Snowdancer385 · 13/12/2021 20:16

"No, you're not familiar with gender critical feminist discussion points. You just think you are, and so simply tilting at windmills."

Something something "gender stereotypes, men in dresses", totally ignoring that plenty trans women don't wear dresses.

Something something, "heterosexual males", totally ignoring the fact that trans lesbians' attraction to women includes other trans women, which is not "heterosexual" by any means.

Something something, "abolishing gender", even through you want to enforce strictly gendered language, and uphold sex segregation, even though those things are inherently an aspect of gender rather than sex.

No, I absolutely do know your rhetoric inside and out.

Artichokeleaves · 13/12/2021 20:19

@Snowdancer385

"I want the right to be homosexual without being threatened with murder, rape and exclusion from Pride if I dare say so in public."

Date whoever you want, no one is going to bother to check whether or not the women you date are trans.

Just keep your unsolicited commentary on trans women's gender or sex to your own goddamn self. We don't fucking want to hear it, anymore than you'd want to hear a cishet man calling you a "dyke" or a "genetic dead end".

Which is doubly ironic, since baby-making as women's biological purpose is something your own ideology embraces now.

And yeah, if you who can't treat other LGBTQ people with basic decency and respect, then you are not fucking welcome at Pride.

So I can be homosexual so long as I do it behind closed doors, tell nobody, and never talk about it?

Do you remember what 'Pride' means?

And does your expectation of basic decency and respect extend to all LGBT+ people or just the ones you politically agree with?

Artichokeleaves · 13/12/2021 20:20

And I could talk a lot about what I really don't want to hear either, but then I'm not an angry, intolerant person unable to cope with anyone not doing and thinking and believing the same as me.

Try a bit of live and let live. #bekind. Diversity and inclusion.

Linguini · 13/12/2021 20:20

[quote Snowdancer385]@Artichokeleaves This is all quite ironic to say, considering you lot campaign to reimplement Section 28 but for trans people.[/quote]
🤣
All they have are regurgitated lies isn't it....

Snowdancer385 · 13/12/2021 20:21

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Snowdancer385 · 13/12/2021 20:22

"Try a bit of live and let live. #bekind. Diversity and inclusion."

Then quit attacking trans people and campaigning for trans people's exclusion.

Linguini · 13/12/2021 20:23

And no, I don't give a damn how "sex-based" your gender categorization is.

And gender critical feminists really don't give a damn how "special and unexplainable" your gender based categorisation of men and women are....

Also, jeez chill.

Civil debate, no?

Linguini · 13/12/2021 20:27

Then quit attacking trans people and campaigning for trans people's exclusion

"Attacking" 🙄
"Exclusion" 🙄

Something something hyperbole....

Snowdancer385 · 13/12/2021 20:29

@Linguini

And no, I don't give a damn how "sex-based" your gender categorization is.

And gender critical feminists really don't give a damn how "special and unexplainable" your gender based categorisation of men and women are....

Also, jeez chill.

Civil debate, no?

I think we've been past "civil debate" ever since you started constantly calling trans women "paraphilic fetishists and predators".

You all have made it pretty clear your goal is to, what was it, "mandate transgenderism out of existence" by "eliminating the medical and social systems that support it"?

There will be no "civil debate" with that, only resistance.

Artichokeleaves · 13/12/2021 20:30

@Snowdancer385

"Try a bit of live and let live. #bekind. Diversity and inclusion."

Then quit attacking trans people and campaigning for trans people's exclusion.

I'm campaigning for female people to have access to female only resources - additional mixed sex spaces fine. Third spaces fine. I'm not solving your exclusion issue by excluding females instead - the point is exclusion isn't a good thing.

For example the rape crisis centre situation - TW have three separate options to meet their needs. Females are excluded. I want an additional female only group so that all female needs are met alongside the existing provision. I don't want to see any lessening of the resources for TW, it doesn't affect them at all to permit one group to prevent other women being excluded.

Sophoclesthefox · 13/12/2021 20:32

Am starting to wonder if the Council of Europe report was your handiwork, Snowdancer. You seem very het up about it.

Are you just here to yell at people and sling slurs, or do you want to discuss anything?

Artichokeleaves · 13/12/2021 20:32

Wanting female needs met and sex based rights retained alongside whatever additional things are needed to meet the needs of TW really is not 'mandating' anything out of existence.

AssassinatedBeauty · 13/12/2021 20:33

And to continue with my analogy, you have hoisted yourself by your own petard with your "something something" post. You have no understanding of the points feminists make about gender ideology. Probably because you are too busy going for a full throttle attack mode post.

Snowdancer385 · 13/12/2021 20:33

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Bearsinmotion · 13/12/2021 20:33

You all have made it pretty clear your goal is to, what was it, "mandate transgenderism out of existence" by "eliminating the medical and social systems that support it"?

Where are those quotes from?

Snowdancer385 · 13/12/2021 20:34

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Snowdancer385 · 13/12/2021 20:37

@Bearsinmotion

You all have made it pretty clear your goal is to, what was it, "mandate transgenderism out of existence" by "eliminating the medical and social systems that support it"?

Where are those quotes from?

twitter.com/graceelavery/status/1312906865832005637
Snowdancer385 · 13/12/2021 20:39

@AssassinatedBeauty

And to continue with my analogy, you have hoisted yourself by your own petard with your "something something" post. You have no understanding of the points feminists make about gender ideology. Probably because you are too busy going for a full throttle attack mode post.
I've literally cited some of the most common of your points, and immediately followed up by pointing out the glaring issues with those points.

I do understand, the problem is that you're persistently refusing to acknowledge the way your arguments simply don't logically hold up.

GoodieMoomin · 13/12/2021 20:40

Something something Bunbury, something something cake

bordermidgebite · 13/12/2021 20:42

I want transwomen safely and fully included in male spaces or in third transwomen spaces

I do not want women eliminated from existence by the redefining of the word woman and the removal of the features that support female participation in society

AssassinatedBeauty · 13/12/2021 20:42

I most certainly have never said any of the things that you have "quoted" on this thread. Nor are they representative of typical discussion points made by feminists concerned with the impact of gender ideology on women's rights and lesbian rights. You keep saying "you" where you mean "someone else".

Sophoclesthefox · 13/12/2021 20:46

Who is the “you” in your angry railing, snowdancer?

We’d get a lot further if you would attempt to engage with the points made by the posters on this thread, rather than flailing about punching at some composite of THE ENEMY as you seem to be doing.

Of, you can do it your way, if you imagine that you’re winning hearts and minds and making new friends, of course. I expect you don’t think the awful women here deserve anything but your anger. I wonder how you came to that conclusion?

OldCrone · 13/12/2021 20:47

@AssassinatedBeauty

I most certainly have never said any of the things that you have "quoted" on this thread. Nor are they representative of typical discussion points made by feminists concerned with the impact of gender ideology on women's rights and lesbian rights. You keep saying "you" where you mean "someone else".
Apparently the quote about mandating transgenderism out of existence is something Janice Raymond said (according to the Grace Lavery tweet). As far as I know, Janice Raymond has never posted on Mumsnet.
Snowdancer385 · 13/12/2021 20:48

@bordermidgebite

I want transwomen safely and fully included in male spaces or in third transwomen spaces

I do not want women eliminated from existence by the redefining of the word woman and the removal of the features that support female participation in society

The whole point of being trans is that trans women aren't "men".

It's the equivalent of saying "I want gay men to safely live their lives with their wives. Smile"

And inclusion of trans women in no way "eliminates" cis women from existence.

Snowdancer385 · 13/12/2021 20:52

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