Trans issues - I need educating!

[LilyLott44]

I’m probably going to get told to read more, and I fully intend to. I want to be as open-minded as possible about trans issues but, right now I admit to being relatively clueless.

There is a wealth of information (and mis-information) online but I thought maybe some more educated mumsnetters could help me get my head around the basics to start off with.

I sincerely apologise if I inadvertently use any inappropriate terminology or make any wrong assumptions- I can assure you, it comes from a place of confusion rather that bigotry!

I think what I’m most confused about is the idea that a trans woman can be a feminist. My understanding is that most feminists believe that gender is a social construct?? So, by it’s very nature, transitioning to, or identifying with, another gender is conforming to the idea that the stereotypes are actually not stereotypes at all. It implies that feminine/masculine traits are somehow innate?

So if a man feels as though they predominantly experience traditional ‘feminine’ traits - it can mean they could have been wrongly identified as male, and subsequently make the decision to identify as female?

I know there are issues between feminists and trans women over safe spaces, but isn’t there also an idealogical conflict here too?

Again, apologies for my ignorance. I recognise this is an increasingly controversial topic so want to understand before I express any opinions - someone may ask me about this in real life and I would be genuinely stumped. I appreciate it’s a far more complex issue than my question suggests.

Thank you.

Interesting first ever post OP. Welcome to Mumsnet

I think Kathleen stocks material girls is a good start

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?msgid=107536953

You are right. You will be told to read more. There is no magic fix.

I would start with getting as much background as you can. The break it down for me thread is good. It starts off with explanations but ends with page after page of links to papers, studies, news articles etc.

And I would suggest Helen Joyce’s ‘Trans’. You will be constantly reading after that to try to get your head around all the other questions you then will have.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

This is thread you need: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?pg=1

I suggest you read through that first. It covers all the basics and more. By the time you get to the end you’ll know which areas you are interested in drilling down into and the search function will help you find relevant discussions. There must be a handful of threads like this each week, so rather than asking regulars to retread the same ground for the umpteenth time I suggest you read around the topic first.

And ‘feminism’ centres all females. Males cannot be included without feminism becoming ‘everyoneism’.

Fabulous. Thank you all. I will have a good read through your recommendations.

Much appreciated.

The question is what is it that makes someone a man or woman?
It's not 'femininity' or 'masculinity' per se - at least not for everyone, in the current thinking - as you have masculine trans women etc.

I can't think of a way it works without resorting to awful sex role stereotypes.

Do you think women are oppressed because of their physical sex, or because of how womanly they feel inside?

The book Trans by Helen Joyce gives an excellent introduction. It's on Kindle.

But in general OP, just reading any current thread you will find lots of information, lots of discussion about how does any male identify what it is to be a women, without it always being a male’s perspective of what it is being a woman. Every. Single. Time.

And vice versa.

That is why the TWAW mantra simple is a group of empty words. Transitioned males, or transwomen, are always transwomen. That is their reality. Even if they have a lifetime of being treated as a woman, it is not a woman being treated as a person living an authentic life with a female body. How can it ever be?

To refer to one of their constant very offensive refrains, their infertility issues are NOT like women’s infertility issues at all. Just saying it is, doesn’t make it so.

Yes, transgender ideology relies heavily on people buying into gender stereotypes.

Apart from gender is a social construct, I believe that biological sex is in changeable, and the social construct that defines ‘women’ as well as the reality of women’s lives and the past couple of millenia of oppression of women is due to this biological difference. Which means that trans women are unable to step into our shoes apart from in a very superficial way- these biological differences remain, they are often very defining of our life experience and we cannot ‘identify’ out of them, so language or approaches that treat them as irrelevant are a bad idea. Not talking about something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Biological sex is *unchangeable in case that’s not bloody obvious!

I think you are asking at one point "are stereotypes around femininity and masculinity actually a true and innate characterisation of male and female ".. hence if someone has the "wrong" set of traits they have been misidentified

And hardly innate to like pink or lace or dresses or long hair since that being make/female changes with time and culture

Probably almost everyone has at least one aspect that is associated more commonly with the other sex .

But also femininity isn't what abusrers and women haters latch onto , so you don't need to protect feminine people in the sane way you need to protect women

I find what you said about Trans women and feminism that interesting. For me feminism is about supporting and standing up for all women which of course includes trans women. And therefore anyone can be a feminist. But I have seen posts on forums from women that believe only biological born women can be feminists and that feminism only applies to biological born women. But I believe as a society overall we are more inclusive than that. But it is not straightforward or easy to unpick years of views, values and stereotypes that were ingrained in society. But hopefully we will continue to do better. Being open to conversation and listening to trans people is a good way forward. Thank you for an interesting post.

OP

I think what I’m most confused about is the idea that a trans woman can be a feminist.

You might also want to get to understand the difference between the current version of ‘insectional feminists’, which I believe is not quite the same as it started out as and other waves of feminism.

As with any movement there are sometimes different interpretations. Some feminists not only think that males can be feminists, some also think sex work is ‘work’ like any other work vs understanding the coercive nature of sex work, some also believe it is a woman’s right to provide babies for others vs understanding the very dangerous and coercive nature of surrogacy (as well as understanding that not one person on this planet has the right to demand they are provided with a child).

It is a huge topic to unpick right there in your statement but well worth the journey as you will understand so much more.

I like the UN in their rather ridiculous statement earlier this year, I don’t believe that feminists should be everyone’s mum, they are not there to make the world a better place for all.

The needs of transitioned males have been proven to be in direct conflict with those of females (including transitioned females, which feminism continues to support).

Unlike the UN. Autocarrot.

I believe that biological sex is inchangeable

Well, it's not in principle. That's not an attribute of sex, it's a characteristic of humans (and mammals more generally).

You shouldn't word things too strongly. Don't say "flight is impossible", but rather "humans can't fly".

Which means that trans women are unable to step into our shoes apart from in a very superficial way- these biological differences remain, they are often very defining of our life experience and we cannot ‘identify’ out of them

And actually, all those statements would remain true even if males could change sex. There would remain a fundamental life experience difference between those being born female and those born male who then changed. And biological differences - why would a male somehow growing a working female reproductive system - thus making them "female" - alter their sporting performance, for example?

I think that's sometimes overlooked - people put too much emphasis on the "changing sex is impossible" rather than the more fundamental "what sex you are born as matters".

We separate things by sex partly because the fact we don't change sex means sex is a good proxy for all sorts of things. In a world where you had natal females and actual (not trans) MtF females, you would definitely need to distinguish the two. Reproductive classification would be a less good marker - you would certainly need "natal female" sport. And maybe "MtF" sport.

The trans confusion in part relies on us not knowing how to handle sex changes and not having a framework that separates "natal female" and "MtF". (And if there were real MtF I shudder to imagine the bunfighting between them and the trans people claiming to be female who hadn't actually changed sex).

If you really want to understand trans issues, mumsnet is not a great place to start. The forums on here are widely acknowledged as being rather anti-trans.

I recommend you look up local charities that support LGBT+ people in your area and see if there is somebody there that you can have a conversation with. There are likely to have access to a wealth of resources that they will be able to connect you with.

Also try to arrange to talk to some actual trans people - after all, how can you "educate yourself about trans issues" any other way than by talking to trans people?

Slightly confused as to how transwomen are women (should I treat that as a derailment attempt?)

I would argue transwomen can be feminist because I think males can be feminist

My father grew up in a household where the women were abused and that turned him into a feminist -empathy for his sisters and mother. He used what little power he had ( as a working class male) to change things.

I don't like the modern "ally" terminology, I don't like terminology that divides or imposes a hierarchy based on anything other than actual deeds

strawberrydonuts

OP has not asked so much about ‘trans issues’, they have asked about feminism. They have sought input from people fighting to uphold the rights of all females against the conflicts of rights being claimed by a subset of males.

That your frame your post ad this forum being ‘anti trans’ when there have been many trans posters in the past is showing your own biased and rather prejudiced view.

Have you not heard the many trans voices that support the prioritisation of sex over gender when sex matters? Are they ‘anti-trans’ as well?

Genuine question.

@strawberrydonuts

If you really want to understand trans issues, mumsnet is not a great place to start. The forums on here are widely acknowledged as being rather anti-trans.

I recommend you look up local charities that support LGBT+ people in your area and see if there is somebody there that you can have a conversation with. There are likely to have access to a wealth of resources that they will be able to connect you with.

Also try to arrange to talk to some actual trans people - after all, how can you "educate yourself about trans issues" any other way than by talking to trans people?

this

I think what I’m most confused about is the idea that a trans woman can be a feminist. My understanding is that most feminists believe that gender is a social construct?? So, by it’s very nature, transitioning to, or identifying with, another gender is conforming to the idea that the stereotypes are actually not stereotypes at all. It implies that feminine/masculine traits are somehow innate?

Firstly, anybody can be a feminist, regardless of their own sex or gender. Feminism, boiled down to a simple definition, is advocating for equal rights between the sexes. There is no reason why anybody can't be a feminist. Whatever their own identity, they can still believe that women should have equal rights to men.

You are right that gender is largely a social construct. However, something that I think a lot of people fail to grasp in this debate is that the fact that it's a social construct doesn't mean it's not a Real Thing which affects a lot of people.

You can admit that gender is a social construct, but at the same time still be bound by those social constructs. They are still a part of who we are, even if we recognise that they were imposed by humans. They can still affect you to the extent that you want to change your gender. Social construct does not = imaginary.

In an ideal world, sure, there would be no gender stereotypes, no social construct of gender, no one would have any gender dysphoria. But that is not actually the world in which we are living.

OP has not asked so much about ‘trans issues’, they have asked about feminism

The title of the thread is "Trans issues - I need educating".

I suspect in practice it's a small subset of the transgender community that could be feminist.

People are transgender for many reasons ( easy to forget when the online space is dominated by one sub group )