Trans issues - I need educating!

[LilyLott44]

I’m probably going to get told to read more, and I fully intend to. I want to be as open-minded as possible about trans issues but, right now I admit to being relatively clueless.

There is a wealth of information (and mis-information) online but I thought maybe some more educated mumsnetters could help me get my head around the basics to start off with.

I sincerely apologise if I inadvertently use any inappropriate terminology or make any wrong assumptions- I can assure you, it comes from a place of confusion rather that bigotry!

I think what I’m most confused about is the idea that a trans woman can be a feminist. My understanding is that most feminists believe that gender is a social construct?? So, by it’s very nature, transitioning to, or identifying with, another gender is conforming to the idea that the stereotypes are actually not stereotypes at all. It implies that feminine/masculine traits are somehow innate?

So if a man feels as though they predominantly experience traditional ‘feminine’ traits - it can mean they could have been wrongly identified as male, and subsequently make the decision to identify as female?

I know there are issues between feminists and trans women over safe spaces, but isn’t there also an idealogical conflict here too?

Again, apologies for my ignorance. I recognise this is an increasingly controversial topic so want to understand before I express any opinions - someone may ask me about this in real life and I would be genuinely stumped. I appreciate it’s a far more complex issue than my question suggests.

Thank you.

I meant to share this picture - equality vs equity

The thing is, op, that you are going to get one viewpoint from MN. That view point is that being female is governed by your physical body and that everything else is just stereotypes.

To understand the trans debate fully you need to take information from a variety of different areas. Including people who believe that anyone who says they are a woman is a woman.

Priam... This is not true. At the moment on the first page of this board there is a thread where a transwoman is posting. This person fully believes that transwomen are women and is even now stating that argument. Mumsnet is far from being an echo chamber , however, those who post here have to be willing to have their views challenged and provide evidence for any assertions they make, unlike most other social media forums.

I don't think I agree totally

Being female is woman Yes

Everything else just stereotypes... less so. I don't think that everyone here who is gc will buy that generalisation

Gender dysmorphia - hatred of the transition of the body from girl to woman -is very very real

I I also think that your turn of phrase dismisses how real we think stereotypes are as a mental concept and a tool of oppression

So if you are trying to dismiss gc position, please get it right

That view point is that being female is governed by your physical body and that everything else is just stereotypes.

I'm dying to hear what else it's governed by. Which zodiac sign Venus is in?

@PriamFarrl

The thing is, op, that you are going to get one viewpoint from MN. That view point is that being female is governed by your physical body and that everything else is just stereotypes.

To understand the trans debate fully you need to take information from a variety of different areas. Including people who believe that anyone who says they are a woman is a woman.

Ah... I'm not quite sure what you're saying so could you please clarify?

What, specifically, is female about someone if it isn't their body? Personally, I use the word "female" to refer only to biological sex. I can't understand what it might mean to describe anything else as female - could you please clarify what you use it to refer to?

Behaviours? Preferences? Type of brain or personality?

I agree with the GC position. I agree that being a woman is governed by having a female body.

I’m simply saying that it’s the over riding view here and that of someone wants to understand the whole debate then they have to look at both sides.

@NecessaryScene

That view point is that being female is governed by your physical body and that everything else is just stereotypes.

I'm dying to hear what else it's governed by. Which zodiac sign Venus is in?

That is the view point I agree with.

So if you are trying to dismiss gc position, please get it right

I’m not trying to dismiss it, quite the opposite.

@PriamFarrl

The thing is, op, that you are going to get one viewpoint from MN. That view point is that being female is governed by your physical body and that everything else is just stereotypes.

To understand the trans debate fully you need to take information from a variety of different areas. Including people who believe that anyone who says they are a woman is a woman.

What is the benefit from detaching being a female from having a female body?

Did you really mean this? How can anyone be female without a female body?

Or are you saying a male can be a female? Because we have been assured by even the most vocal trans activists that no one is denying their biology any more (compared to the narrative a couple of years ago).

Maybe you missed that? Because recently trans people who did deny their sexed bodies to medical staff have suffered terribly. One transman died.

Or are you saying a male can be a female? Because we have been assured by even the most vocal trans activists that no one is denying their biology any more (compared to the narrative a couple of years ago).

Nope. I’m on the GC side. I was just putting both sides in a nutshell.

Well I suppose it is a good idea to listen to those who say TWAW

It's often very illuminating . Although you may need a trigger warning if concepts such as "lady brain" have been used to bully you in the past

And also worth listening to TW who say TW are men

I don’t know of any regular poster who recommends limiting where and what people read. It seems to be those who seem to believe that MN feminists are a hive mind who do.

I have found it is a projection of their own limitations rather than reality though.

Another good book is Helen Joyce's 'Trans'.

@PriamFarrl

I agree with the GC position. I agree that being a woman is governed by having a female body.

I’m simply saying that it’s the over riding view here and that of someone wants to understand the whole debate then they have to look at both sides.

Genuinely, I have read and read and read the 'other side' and agree with a lot of it - that people shouldn't be treated badly because they're trans etc. What I have not read, and have not had an answer to here despite asking people who espouse the TWAW position (and many have come on here) for several years, are very basic things like 'what is a woman?', 'what is a gender identity?', 'is gender, broadly speaking, concepts of masculinity/femininity?' etc.

They are nearly always waffled around - a whole programme about gender id on the radio started it with a TW saying something like 'it's a sense of who you are'. Which makes no sense to me and doesn't tell me what it actually is. Perhaps I don't have a 'sense of who I am', but I feel like I do - it's just got very little to do with whether I know I am somehow a woman inside my body or not.

I completely agree, Monsignor. But I think it’s important that anyone starting to ask questions about this comes to that through their own conclusion.

I agree with the above suggestions on ',Trans' and 'Material Girls.' Also, whilst it's not focused on the trans debate, try 'Invisible women' - and be prepared to swear a lot. That book sets out just how mysiogynistic this world is - and neatly explains why females are seen a second class or (at best) crap men. Once you see it - from phone design to pill trials - you can't under it..

This is very simple. You have to repeat the mantra TWAW (trans women are women), and that's it. However, be warned, any deviation whatsoever from this holy writ will see you doxxed, cancelled and possibly worse.