Trans issues - I need educating!

[LilyLott44]

I’m probably going to get told to read more, and I fully intend to. I want to be as open-minded as possible about trans issues but, right now I admit to being relatively clueless.

There is a wealth of information (and mis-information) online but I thought maybe some more educated mumsnetters could help me get my head around the basics to start off with.

I sincerely apologise if I inadvertently use any inappropriate terminology or make any wrong assumptions- I can assure you, it comes from a place of confusion rather that bigotry!

I think what I’m most confused about is the idea that a trans woman can be a feminist. My understanding is that most feminists believe that gender is a social construct?? So, by it’s very nature, transitioning to, or identifying with, another gender is conforming to the idea that the stereotypes are actually not stereotypes at all. It implies that feminine/masculine traits are somehow innate?

So if a man feels as though they predominantly experience traditional ‘feminine’ traits - it can mean they could have been wrongly identified as male, and subsequently make the decision to identify as female?

I know there are issues between feminists and trans women over safe spaces, but isn’t there also an idealogical conflict here too?

Again, apologies for my ignorance. I recognise this is an increasingly controversial topic so want to understand before I express any opinions - someone may ask me about this in real life and I would be genuinely stumped. I appreciate it’s a far more complex issue than my question suggests.

Thank you.

Sometimes ‘equality’ isn’t what you think it is.

@Helleofabore

strawberrydonuts

OP has not asked so much about ‘trans issues’, they have asked about feminism. They have sought input from people fighting to uphold the rights of all females against the conflicts of rights being claimed by a subset of males.

That your frame your post ad this forum being ‘anti trans’ when there have been many trans posters in the past is showing your own biased and rather prejudiced view.

Have you not heard the many trans voices that support the prioritisation of sex over gender when sex matters? Are they ‘anti-trans’ as well?

Genuine question.

Yeah. This is why I don't post much on these forums. Ducking out now.

strawberry lots of us here would be consideres trans by Stonewall.
The redefinition of the word "woman" - which remains unanswered, btw, so did feel free to provide a clarifying and non-circular defining to clear this all up once and for all - affects all women, so we are perfectly entitled to discuss it.

Also try to arrange to talk to some actual trans people - after all, how can you "educate yourself about trans issues" any other way than by talking to trans people?

Imagine if we told trans people [who are male] they had to talk to women to understand our issues?

Oh the irony.

*considered

bordermidgebite

It is true midge. Under the trans umbrella, I believe I and many other posters on this particular board would be placed.

It is quite eye opening to constantly see the prejudice of some posters when they make assumptions and such negative generalisations.

No-one can really define what gender is, op, other than a set of stereotypes.

Feminism, boiled down to a simple definition, is advocating for equal rights between the sexes.

That's a too-broad definition. There is obviously more to it than that otherwise men's rights activism would be the same as feminism.

Activism needs to take a particular side, and there need to be people on both sides fighting it out. That's why you have the prosecution and defence in court, not just a judge.

Sure, it would be terribly streamlining to say "don't bother with the defence lawyer, the judge will take care of it for you". Not terribly fair though. Saying "feminism" is about "equality" rather than "women" is effectively doing the same thing.

That's the most notable thing in all of this - this attempt to suggest that there should be no movement specifically for women.

(Link to one of my favourite Magdalen Berns videos about the actually-not-a-parody site )

They can still affect you to the extent that you want to change your gender. Social construct does not = imaginary.

In an ideal world, sure, there would be no gender stereotypes, no social construct of gender, no one would have any gender dysphoria. But that is not actually the world in which we are living.

Right, but feminism (and gender criticism - hence the name) is fighting against that social construct. Genderism is fighting to support it.

Yeah. This is why I don't post much on these forums. Ducking out now.

Because you are asked inconvenient questions? Because it points out that your prejudice when you post is pretty offensive to the many trans voices, we can provide you a list if you have not come across them, who also believe that sex matters sometimes and where there are conflicts, that sex needs to be prioritised?

Are you so deeply entrenched that you cannot see that you are denying their voices to? Or are they (many transitioned males believe this too) not the ‘right’ type of trans people in your mind?

So you can’t answer? That is ok. It is probably exactly why the OP has come here to find answers in the first place. Maybe if you actually read the threads you would find a way to answer the question asked if you had an open mind.

@cookiemonster2468

OP has not asked so much about ‘trans issues’, they have asked about feminism

The title of the thread is "Trans issues - I need educating".

On a feminist board.

Therefore asking for a feminist perspective which is about the interplay between the rights of females and those of a subset of males.

If they were asking from a different perspective, they would have asked on a trans support board.

@Shedmistress

Also try to arrange to talk to some actual trans people - after all, how can you "educate yourself about trans issues" any other way than by talking to trans people?

Imagine if we told trans people [who are male] they had to talk to women to understand our issues?

Oh the irony.

This!

“I think what I’m most confused about is the idea that a trans woman can be a feminist. My understanding is that most feminists believe that gender is a social construct?? So, by it’s very nature, transitioning to, or identifying with, another gender is conforming to the idea that the stereotypes are actually not stereotypes at all. It implies that feminine/masculine traits are somehow innate?”

I agree, I don’t see how anyone who subscribes to gender identity theory can be a feminist. I understand feminism to be rooted in the idea that our biological sex class is the only criteria for womanhood that everything else is personal choice and that women can be, do, like anything, dress however we choose, have had whatever surgeries or medical conditions (which may alter our sex characteristics or biological function) but our womanhood remains unchanged. Gender identity theory is the antithesis of this understanding of feminism and entirely incompatible with it.

I suspect the problem is that the cultural understanding of manhood has somehow not been so rooted in the biological sex class. I have heard men exhort each other to be a man or suggest that certain behaviours will make them a woman. It seems that the cultural understanding of manhood is more fragile and implies that manhood is something that needs to be achieved and once achieved continually worked for. I suspect we need a movement to tie manhood with biological sex and to insist that a man is still a man regardless of his sexual orientation, his tastes and preferences, his career, his hobbies, how he chooses to dress and any surgery or medical conditions he has which alter sex based characteristics or reproductive function.

Gender identity theory began with men who believed this cultural construct that manliness was not tied to sex but to tastes, preferences and behaviours. They declared that men not living up to masculine stereotypes to an acceptable level were not really were not ‘proper’ men and some of those men accepted and even embraced their own rejection by their fellow men.

When you get further into your reading OP, please do look up Foucault and his Queer Theory which under pins this destabilisation of society. Although, perhaps read his work, then the articles about his personal sexual habits, and then the effect on the French laws of consent he and other intellectuals successfully had enacted. Then read the latest articles about those children this directly affected and why it took so long for them to be able to talk about their trauma from the 70s onwards.

I think it is always important to know the basis of the ideology that is driving changes that have already shown the negative impacts on the rights of women and children. The solution is not to ignore that these conflicts exist, the solution is to come up with ‘equitable’ options that protect both parties.

The solution is not to ignore that these conflicts exist, the solution is to come up with ‘equitable’ options that protect both parties.

And this, by the way, is what is NOT advocated for by people who seek to call fighting to uphold the rights of females and children ‘anti-trans’. That is their own agenda coming to light, right there.

My thoughts on this are:-

1. In order to acknowledge gender fluidity, one must first acknowledge and accept gender stereotypes
2. There must also be a belief that biological sex is meaningless
3. Yet biological sex must have some meaning, as then at birth you are prescribed "boy" or "girl" based on the gentalia, and thus the gender stereotype prescribed to your sex is laid on you. If you then dont "comply" with this, you are the wrong gender.

Feminists (in my experience), dont agree with point 1, dont agree with point 2, which then renders point 3 moot.

The whole thing is a fucking mess, and lots and lots of women (of all ages) are sleepwalking into a future which puts women back firmly at the bottom of the pile. After all these years of busting our guts towards equality.

Thank you for all your posts. Very interesting reading the different opinions. It is clearly a contentious subject.

I’m not going to get embroiled in any of the debates as I clearly don’t know enough about it to form an educated opinion. I will bow out gracefully and leave any further discussion to those far more knowledgable than me.

I will take on all recommendations for further reading and perhaps come back on this forum to argue my case once I can make a coherent one!! ;)

Thank you.

I think you will find we all were in similar places to you OP. And then we did the reading and all ended up with our many varied opinions on MN.

LilyLott44

You're quite right that transgenderism is underpinned by sexism. It has to be. Your sex is merely a description of your reproductive potential. Anything else is socially constructed sex roles and stereotypes, and, to a large extent, they are imposed. Particularly for women.

Feminism is the liberation of women from a patriarchal society (and therefore those detrimental stereotypes). It's not merely equality. Otherwise women would be advocating for men to be prostitutes, to be selling young boys in marriage to middle aged women, and to have their bodies commodified and objectified. That's equal. If you want to stop those things happening to women, that's feminism.

Personally I don't think men can be feminist, because they don't live it. That's not to say their contribution isn't useful though. But it's not a hill I'd die on anyway.

You have several transactivists contributing to this thread, which might account for the apparent contention.

Good luck with the reading! Take wine.

📖🍷 and hope to see you back on this board.

On the difference between liberal feminism and actual feminism, here's the brilliant, and much missed, Magdalen Berns.

@cookiemonster2468

OP has not asked so much about ‘trans issues’, they have asked about feminism

The title of the thread is "Trans issues - I need educating".

You're supposed to read beyond the title/headline.

OP, I recommend these two links

If ‘White Feminism’ is a Thing, Gender Identity Ideology Epitomizes It
dgrnewsservice.org/civilization/patriarchy/gender/white-feminism-thing-gender-identity-ideology-epitomizes/

A feminist critique of “cisgender” | Liberation Collective
liberationcollective.wordpress.com/2012/06/08/a-feminist-critique-of-cisgender/

You're supposed to read beyond the title/headline.

Am I being unreasonable?

YES

Did you read the actual words typed in the original post?

THAT DOESN'T MATTER

Lol.

This video cannot be posted enough!!!

It does seem to rebut strawberry’s post in that Strawberry’s feminism is for everyone and that feminist’s emotional, mental and physical labour should be to make the world a better place for everyone (including when it has been shown to jeopardize the very people the feminism movement was started to help- females) in a very clear and concise format.

That women need to mother the world was posited in a UN campaign not so long ago.

It seems quite hard for people to accept that changing movements and language to suit themselves is not accepted by others. Hence posts declaring this board as being ‘anti-trans’ when they clearly are ignoring trans voices that also disagree with them.

@strawberrydonuts

I think what I’m most confused about is the idea that a trans woman can be a feminist. My understanding is that most feminists believe that gender is a social construct?? So, by it’s very nature, transitioning to, or identifying with, another gender is conforming to the idea that the stereotypes are actually not stereotypes at all. It implies that feminine/masculine traits are somehow innate?

Firstly, anybody can be a feminist, regardless of their own sex or gender. Feminism, boiled down to a simple definition, is advocating for equal rights between the sexes. There is no reason why anybody can't be a feminist. Whatever their own identity, they can still believe that women should have equal rights to men.

You are right that gender is largely a social construct. However, something that I think a lot of people fail to grasp in this debate is that the fact that it's a social construct doesn't mean it's not a Real Thing which affects a lot of people.

You can admit that gender is a social construct, but at the same time still be bound by those social constructs. They are still a part of who we are, even if we recognise that they were imposed by humans. They can still affect you to the extent that you want to change your gender. Social construct does not = imaginary.

In an ideal world, sure, there would be no gender stereotypes, no social construct of gender, no one would have any gender dysphoria. But that is not actually the world in which we are living.

Feminism is about women's liberation from the patriarchal system we currently live in. That's not the same thing as equality, necessarily.

We could be equal in a society that oppressed women and men equally but still not be liberated.

We can't solve the problem of the objectification of women, for example, by changing society so men are equally objectified, can we?

I'm reminded of this equality vs equity illustration also.

As Magdalen Berns mentions in the video above, it's the feminism that centres women that has actually got shit done for women.

Changing feminism from a movement that is for and by women, to one that's for equality, that's by and for everyone, dilutes feminism (or changes it entirely) so you end up with things like universities killing off their women's studies courses in favour of gender studies, which is happening here and globally.

People are moving away from terms like Violence Against Women and Girls or the more specific, Male Violence Against Women and Girls, in favour of gender neutral terms like Gender Based Violence - which obscures who's doing the violence and to whom.

This has real world consequences. My local specialist and much admired refuge, run by women for women, lost its funding from the council in favour of a non-specialist provider (a housing association) because the HA historically provided services for men and the refuge didn't (although they said they'd be happy to do so).

Making things "equal" can sound good, but if equality is used to obscure class analysis (which it routinely is, these days) then it's women and girls who suffer.