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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prospect Magazine: Kathleen Stock v Robin Moira White

519 replies

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/12/2021 20:06

Great discussion.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/essays/gender-wars-two-opposing-perspectives-on-the-trans-and-womens-rights-debate

Gender wars: two opposing perspectives on the trans and women’s rights debate
A lawyer and philosopher respond to seven propositions—ranging from single-sex spaces to puberty blockers for children

OP posts:
Lovelyricepudding · 11/12/2021 00:39

I see that this thread, particularly in the early pages is full of those who wish to judge my appearance. Well, my experience is that I dont get misgendered when I am seen as well as heard, and I will live with that.

Don't mistake not being 'misgendered' for not being correctly sexed. Women know they need to placate males to remain safe. You will not be able to observe the shift that takes place when a male enters the room. But a shift does take place regardless of how feminine presenting the male is, and in a female single sex space that shift is to alertness, anxiety, appeasement...

Regardless of how well you think you 'pass', your argument extends to those who look no different from any other bloke but who simply utter the magic words 'I identify as a woman'.

334bu · 11/12/2021 00:41

It isn’t enough to parrot “trans people should be allowed to live without discrimination” if, in the next breath, you argue for the removal of protections, exclusion and “othering.” That is transphobic

In what way are women who wish to maintain their own single sex safe spaces arguing for the above? Women are not removing any protections from another group, they are excluding nobody who is entitled to be in their sex based safe spaces and they do not other anyone.

foxgoosefinch · 11/12/2021 00:42

(Oh and on the spotting sex thing - you couldn't maintain that people just don't notice, if you've ever seen a 6-18m baby react to any male person they don't know. Young children, male and female, are hyper-aware of sex; and most go through a stage where they are extremely distrusting or afraid of any male person who isn't a close family member.)

lovelyweathertoday · 11/12/2021 00:43

Reading the thread above are comments about my appearance and my professionalism, for example, most of which are just plain spiteful. Feminists who have my respect dont deply such tactics.

Oh no! What can we do to earn your respect? Robin, please tell us.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 11/12/2021 00:43

@NoNotMeNoSiree

When she said spite she was clearly talking about people picking apart her appearance, and about her professionalism.
Robin said 'whatever' in response to an interpretation of relatively vague comment about voice. I think she did damage to her professionalism herself tbh.
Datun · 11/12/2021 00:48

@NoNotMeNoSiree

When she said spite she was clearly talking about people picking apart her appearance, and about her professionalism.
It's not about 'picking apart' Robin's appearance. That's not why women refute that transwomen pass. It's to challenge the very idea that 'what we don't know won't harm us.'

What possible implication is to be inferred when males are telling women they don't even know they're there?

I mean the next question is well why the fuck do you think we're objecting then??

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 11/12/2021 00:49

@KimikosNightmare

At the other end of the spectrum, while I look female, I sound male as I have done little to alter my speaking voice, as it is something I rely on in my job as a barrister

This the exact quote. The interpretation being put on it by some posters here actually displays a quite astonishing degree of sexism and prejudice.

In a profession which now has over 50% female entry and good female representation at lower courts and tribunals ( higher courts have a wee bit to go) do posters really think the courts care more for "manly gravitas" than a well argued and presented case?

Can you (general you) not see what a sexist spin you've put on this?

Why do you think the higher courts have a way to go? Genuine question, who holds more positions of power, men or women? What is the pay differential between men and and women in that context? Why do you think that recognising the structural misogyny is sexist?
NoNotMeNoSiree · 11/12/2021 00:50

I'm not surprised, if I had a thread picking apart my appearance and questioned on it or my voice I'd probably feel like saying whatever as well Grin

Datun · 11/12/2021 00:52

@NoNotMeNoSiree

I'm not surprised, if I had a thread picking apart my appearance and questioned on it or my voice I'd probably feel like saying whatever as well Grin
Maintaining that your appearance means that women should not be objecting to your presence is an anti women stance.
NoNotMeNoSiree · 11/12/2021 00:53

@lovelyweathertoday

Reading the thread above are comments about my appearance and my professionalism, for example, most of which are just plain spiteful. Feminists who have my respect dont deply such tactics.

Oh no! What can we do to earn your respect? Robin, please tell us.

Are you always so snarky and patronising? Or do you just keep that for trans people on the Internet?
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 11/12/2021 00:54

So if women have a thread picking apart their right to se based protections and telling them they have no right to expect sex segregated supports after a male sexual assault, should we say whatever? Well we can't can we as we're too busy trying to fight for our rights. We are not questionng Robin's voice ffs. We are talking about whether voice is one conduit of male advantage. IMHO and has someone who has been repeatedly talkies over by booming entered men, it is.

flygirl1983 · 11/12/2021 00:55

@KimikosNightmare

At the other end of the spectrum, while I look female, I sound male as I have done little to alter my speaking voice, as it is something I rely on in my job as a barrister

This the exact quote. The interpretation being put on it by some posters here actually displays a quite astonishing degree of sexism and prejudice.

In a profession which now has over 50% female entry and good female representation at lower courts and tribunals ( higher courts have a wee bit to go) do posters really think the courts care more for "manly gravitas" than a well argued and presented case?

Can you (general you) not see what a sexist spin you've put on this?

I don't think it's necessarily a sexist observation. My partner regularly talks over me when we are having a disagreement. I think it's driven by male socialization, but he only succeeds because his male voice is louder and deeper. For me to be heard, I then have to raise my voice and his reaction is to tell me that I don't need to yell. It's infuriating. I don't know how often barristers are interrupting each other in court, but having a more powerful voice is going to be beneficial.
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 11/12/2021 00:56

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

So if women have a thread picking apart their right to se based protections and telling them they have no right to expect sex segregated supports after a male sexual assault, should we say whatever? Well we can't can we as we're too busy trying to fight for our rights. We are not questionng Robin's voice ffs. We are talking about whether voice is one conduit of male advantage. IMHO and has someone who has been repeatedly talkies over by booming entered men, it is.
entitled men*
Datun · 11/12/2021 00:57

NoNotMeNoSiree

Are you reading something different to everybody else? Robin said that they don't respect women who question whether or not they pass, when the concept of passing is relentlessly used against women.

The argument being that transwomen pose no risk, because they are already moving freely amongst women all the time and we don't even know.

There's no other way to refute that argument other than challenging the initial premise of appearance.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 11/12/2021 01:00

I would like to know whether Robin still thinks the UK should aspire to be more like Malta. I have not commented on Robin's appearance, and I have no interest in doing so at this time.

Further, I would like Robin to ponder whether Malta's self-declaration system for trans people is reflective of a cultural misogyny which means women's very lives are undervalued, much less their opinions on their dignity and comfort.

Is it surprising that a society that needs to make case-by-case decisions on whether women should have the preventative operation to stop them bleeding to death after a rupture, is also happy to let human males award themselves the right to use women's spaces on their own authority?

NoNotMeNoSiree · 11/12/2021 01:18

Are you reading something different to everybody else?
Nope, but referring back to my I find it fascinating how everyone interprets things differently comment, I still do and it maybe that's why you can't see that others don't think the same?
Were all reading the same thread, but interpret things differently.
You seem to see commenting on someone's appearance negatively as '' well they're trans and therefore we need to be able to say what we like about voice and looks as because trans and we need to know we're safe!''
I don't.
I see people as people instead of othering or thinking threats round every corner.
We all interpret differently so yeah, maybe that's why it seems people are reading different threads even though it's the same one.

KimikosNightmare · 11/12/2021 01:24

Why do you think the higher courts have a way to go? Genuine question, who holds more positions of power, men or women? What is the pay differential between men and and women in that context? Why do you think that recognising the structural misogyny is sexist?

I meant in the context of who is sitting on the benches of the higher courts- not who is appearing in the higher courts. Your question has nothing to do with the point I was making.

I think the interpretation put on Robin's comment by posters here is extremely sexist.

You (general you) have basically invented the scenario where you imagine female solicitors, barristers and advocates are overwhelmed by the manly gravitas of manly voices. It's nonsense

Who needs men to put women down when feminist are so happy to do it?

Lovelyricepudding · 11/12/2021 01:27

You count identifying someone as male as 'othering'?

XiXimXerJinping · 11/12/2021 02:57

KimikosNightmare someone has to bring up the ever present spectre of unconscious bias/sexism against women since you seem incapable of recognising it.

CheeseMmmm · 11/12/2021 03:08

That characteristics of one sex mean assumptions about all sorts of things is hardly a wild new idea. That women have come up with randomly to make s point. And shows the women have underlying sexist ideas.

Some haven't read anything about this/ heard it before? I'm surprised.

Off the top of my head I've read, had others talk about, even received work training on this!

Ones I remember are (work context the things I've seen iirc. Studies etc etc).

The pitch of women's voices has got much lower in some countries in the last few decades.
Theory is it's happened (and coincides with) women entering sectors/ roles that were previously essentially closed to them. To do with voice pitch and who gets listened to. Fitting in, in a man's world.
(I watched close encounter a while back and was taken aback at how high pitch the women's voices were. It's really that obvious).

Maggie was advised to have voice coaching to lower pitch of voice. And she did it.
How much effect on the authority of her speaking voice. Hard to say. Interesting though.

Language. Female voices are often described using words that are definitely telling.

Shrill
Whingey
Shrieky
Whiney
Nagging
Prob more those came to mind.

Not great really.

Then there's other stuff about men and authority.

Note that IME men I have worked with are pretty open about expressing some of this. I like to think women don't do this as much but.. of course they do deep social attitudes.

When people in work first met a man, they assumed to be competent, know their stuff, worth listening to.
If they are actually rubbish then opinions change over time.

When people in work first met a woman, they are assumed to be ok, by some likely to be pretty rubbish.
If they are actually really good then opinions change as she proves herself.

-
Men who are tall receive this instant respect etc more than men who are short.
Other
_
Maggie was advised to have voice coaching. Dunno if worked but the advice must have come for some reason.

CheeseMmmm · 11/12/2021 03:19

I find it interesting and tbh quite amusing when things in society, especially things that are noticeable enough to have been studied, theorised about, have had mainstream news articles for a fair old while and plenty of them.

Things which are not good for women in general. And stem from societal ingrained sexism.

Get comments on thread saying.
Women who mention this pretty well known thing are the ones being sexist!

serendipitea · 11/12/2021 03:51

I have been hearing about Human Libraries, and I admire people who volunteer to be human books, to be questioned and (mis-)understood by strangers. I am grateful to Robin for consciously or unconsciously taking on the role of a human book here, by bringing up personal issues such as passing when going into female toilets and when speaking from a personal perspective.

But that means that, like any book, these sentences and these experiences will be taken apart and studied and criticized when we all can see the person in front of us, or at least in videos and photos on the internet.

It is a fine line though, I agree, because on the one hand the comments are a frank discussion of a book we are invited to read but they are also personal to someone also reading the thread. So I feel a bit queasy reading some of the posts, but I also think it is being a very interesting discussion, and Robin must have known this would happen but still came here and seemed open to being... read like a book?

CheeseMmmm · 11/12/2021 03:51

Re the more recent posts.

Women and girls have their appearance picked apart, judged, often very negatively. ALL THE TIME.

Male people feel it's their right to comment, give advice, shout opinion from cars.

Society judges that certain ways of looking from puberty onwards are sending messages to men and boys saying.
Stare at me. Leer at me. Come up and say something obscene. Shout your opinion from a car.
Harrass me, touch me, sexually assault me, rape me.

On TV, loads of magazines, popular newspapers, etc.
So and so photo. Looks fab, tired, old, elegant. Shock she has weird toes, a few greys showing, untoned upper arms. Shocks in leather top/ stuns in racy shorts and plunging top...

About 3 weeks ago. I was going into a shop. Bus at lights. Schoolboy about 13 shouted 'you've got massive tits!' at a passing young woman looked about 20 who was with I assumed her mum.
This was maybe 3.30 in afternoon.
Him and his mates were pissing themselves.

CheeseMmmm · 11/12/2021 04:03

But it's totally outrageous to say as some have (not me, I keep my thoughts to myself but this has got up my nose).

That for s woman to say that a male who has s gender identity of woman, and has stated that no one would ever for s second doubt they were female. (As long as don't talk).

Might not be correct.

Is outrageous.

Women get judged on how they look constantly. Girls as well. Including by men we don't know who tell us their opinion.

Men judge and share things like. Looks like a man, slutty, should be in porn, jailbait, look at those legs, shame about the face/tits/ voice/ never smiles etc etc.

Double standards much??!!!

CheeseMmmm · 11/12/2021 04:32

'when going into female toilets and when speaking from a personal perspective.'

Totally understand that and yes I have felt the same way a fair amount.

After years of discussing this I have noticed something interesting.

Majority of the time.
Women in general on this topic talk about groups. Made up of lots of individuals. It's not personal. It's about this general risk, behaviour etc. And it's about males. Not just males who identify as trans.

Invariably the trans individual who has come to talk focuses on themselves.
The points a that are about how males in general could/ will use this for dodgy reasons are addressed from a personal perspective.
I have had xyz experiences I need to be with women to be safe.
I don't do X and y because I don't think I should.
I do go a and b because of c and d.
Why do you want to stop me doing these things?
Why do you think I'm s risk?

Whether engaging in good faith or not, this IME is how it always goes.

It's always essentially why I am ok, why I should not be denied this.

The approaches. General v personal. Massive general groups (male/female) thinking about all women/ girls etc.
Vs why I should be accepted.

That's s huge barrier, as totally different things.

I have seen more than once, way more. Why do you care about women in prison? You're not going to go to prison.
Do you play sport?
Why do you care?
Etc.

I mean. What? But, that said about loads of things.