Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prospect Magazine: Kathleen Stock v Robin Moira White

519 replies

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/12/2021 20:06

Great discussion.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/essays/gender-wars-two-opposing-perspectives-on-the-trans-and-womens-rights-debate

Gender wars: two opposing perspectives on the trans and women’s rights debate
A lawyer and philosopher respond to seven propositions—ranging from single-sex spaces to puberty blockers for children

OP posts:
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 13/12/2021 00:11

What would my life path have been with modern asistance? Who can say but the best way to get me to do something is to tell me it can't be done

I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at here but I think it's important to recognise that the barriers which women face and have faced across the globe will not usually fall in the face of the determination of one individual. It's also important to note that q high level 'I can do it' attitude is much more likely in a male who has been socialised as boy .

CheeseMmmm · 13/12/2021 00:14

That's really surprised me! V good though obviously, seems my choices were even 10 years after a very different cohort!

'Who can say but the best way to get me to do something is to tell me it can't be done.'

I take it that you are pretty sure that due to your personal academic ability, drive, and determination to succeed against the odds, you would have been able to follow the same path.

Going back to the individual v group thing.

Your ideas about whether it would have impacted on your path.

Obviously if blockers/ hormones were accessible for children from around the start of puberty, then it would be across the board.

Meaning from age 7/ 8 for a fair number of children.

That seems very young to me.

Setting aside feelings about your own life, given that you feel positively about children consenting to this based on your own history.

Does the fact it would apply to children so much younger than 12 give you any reservations?

RobinMoiraWhite · 13/12/2021 00:18

Given that I am, apparently simultaneously, thinking only of myself AND pushing a political agenda, and don’t know what I am talking about AND any show of determination proves I am male, I will leave the thread there.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 13/12/2021 00:24

It's not that a show of determination makes you male and I think you well know that's not what I said. It's that if we move from the specific person to the group (which we need to when considering these issues), clearly there are gendered expectations and socialisations at play. I don't know what determination you'd have had if you'd have been brought up as if you were female. But neither do you.

NotBadConsidering · 13/12/2021 00:31

Come off it Robin, you’re a barrister you can do better than that. You’ve written a book on this issue, are a regular contributor towards this political debate as evidenced by the article in the OP, and you legally represent Stonewall, the most politically active group in the whole debate. Of course you have a political agenda. You want to take part and impart your point of view, influence and legal abilities to this political debate. If you didn’t, no one here would have ever heard of you.

But you use your singular experience, and the fantastical idea of what your singular alternative reality might have been, as the basis for much of what you bring to the discussion, and ignore the questions about how that single experience can be applied to other children who aren’t the 12 year old you. You think you could have had capacity to consent, but don’t engage about how to assess the consent of others, and are happy to leave your personal experience dangling in articles that are used to influence wider decision-making. So yes, you are simultaneously only thinking of yourself and pushing a political agenda.

CheeseMmmm · 13/12/2021 00:34

Saying that this treatment at 12 would have improved your life immeasurably, given the current context. IE that these treatments for children is a massively polarised topic, including loads of media attention, debates, antagonism, even court cases.

Is not a neutral statement.

Where did I think you were male?
I can't remember saying anything about that. I hope I haven't said that anywhere if so I'm very sorry and will ask for MN to delete it.

Do you mean mentioning your determination? That sexist views mean I think that implies male?

I assume not. Especially given the educational choices and the reactions etc I received, that I have talked about with you about.

I'm sure that can't be it because it wouldn't make any sense.

If you let me know where then I'll ask for deletion.

OldCrone · 13/12/2021 00:54

the best way to get me to do something is to tell me it can't be done

I'm surprised at people saying that this sort of attitude is 'male'. Surely whether you take such a comment as a challenge or just accept that something can't be done is down to individual personality rather than sex.

foxgoosefinch · 13/12/2021 01:00

Aren’t girls generally socialised more to accept authority, and especially that “good girls” do what they are told to do, not defy it? Obviously that’s also a facet of personality; but it’s a very well known aspect of gendered socialisation. Especially in the 1970s (and 1980s, as I experienced myself).

Anyway, I’m really disappointed that Robin hasn’t answered my question about what her nonbinary children should be treated the same way as trans children in regards to blockers and subsequent interventions. Since I’m asking a question that is about an opinion, not about Robin personally or a political agenda, or maleness any of the things above but just purely about the abstract debate, I’m surprised that it’s not been engaged with.

foxgoosefinch · 13/12/2021 01:01

*whether not what her

CheeseMmmm · 13/12/2021 01:12

That can't be what was meant.

Because it would be off the scale sexism.
Seeing determination as a uniquely male trait is to reduce women AND MEN to 2D stereotypes. Full stop.

Also to-

Totally ignore, erase, dismiss, even refute -

All the people with vaginas, all over the world, in human history, every having determination. Ever fighting for things they believed, fighting against their position in society....
Without determined women.
In the UK we would not have the vote. We would still be property. We would not have higher education, or be allowed to work in many areas. We would not have legal protection against marital rape....

Over the world all the activists from that group in Afghanistan, Saudi, Iran, etc etc.
Well they can't actually exist. Obviously.

And people with penises who aren't determined? What of them? Not 'real' men? Can't exist?

And said to a poster who had posted her own determination in education to totally go against expectations, ignore constant messages that not right thing. To do what she wanted and fuck anyone who thinks I can't or shouldn't.

I'm sure it must have been something else. I mean it's so bizarre it can't have been that.

CheeseMmmm · 13/12/2021 01:16

Foxgoose.

Yes that is a v strongly enforced aspect of our socialisation.

To state that having determination must mean you are male is outrageous though.

The fact is that most of the time women and girls who are determined, have to be extra determined due to our global/ historical overall position.

foxgoosefinch · 13/12/2021 01:27

Well, I didn’t say determination is a male trait? But it’s undeniably true that socialisation heavily regulates personality traits into approved and not so approved gendered versions. Determination is heavily “approved” of socially in boys; less so in girls, and for centuries “approved” female traits have generally included obedience, malleability, and deference (hence the “obey” in the marriage service, et al.). When women have been determined it has been heavily regulated into areas like homemaking and women’s pursuits, fashion, appearance and sports. Even today I notice that “determined” little girls in my daughter’s primary school get put in an extra special “lunchtime play club” to help them “socialise with kindness” - ie to not be competitive with other girls - whereas the “determined” boys get given leadership roles like class monitor or put in lunchtime competitive sports clubs. 🤷‍♀️

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 13/12/2021 01:28

I personally doubt that the grass on the other side is as green as reported.

For obvious reasons of ethics, we cannot put human children in a randomised controlled trial in which some are given medication to inhibit their development, and some are given placebos.

But we can do that with non-human animals.

Animal studies suggest such concerns may be worth investigating. One 2017 study looked at sheep, which go through a developmental spurt similar to human adolescence. Sheep given puberty-blockers performed worse than controls on a maze-navigation task, suggesting their spatial memory was inferior. A 2020 paper looking at mice found, among other things, that females given puberty blockers were more timid in unfamiliar environments, and gave up sooner on a “forced swim” test that is commonly used to assess whether anti-depressants work.

So inhibiting adolescent development of organs interferes with development of that other important organ, the brain. Not so surprising, seeing as brain development is kind of a big thing during adolescence. I feel that any inhibition of cognitive development is a drawback for a child aspiring to be a barrister. Is that just me?

www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/02/18/little-is-known-about-the-effects-of-puberty-blockers

Back in humans, have you heard of the child Jazz Jennings? Jazz was the poster child for taking "puberty blockers". The result of that was that Jazz's genitalia didn't develop, meaning there wasn't enough tissue for the planned vaginoplasty.

For those unaware, in vaginoplasty surgery, a surgeon typically creates a neo-vagina by using skin and tissue from a penis.

This is a computer generated model of the procedure.

www.twitter.com/LabelFreeBrands/status/1428145928641286153?t=sy5wAnoKpbARWeOpurvocA&s=19

Unfortunately for Jazz, there wasn't enough development there for that, and complications happened after the first procedure. Jazz said the new vagina "split open". Jazz has now had to have at least two more operations to repair it..

As a result, Jazz's surgeon, the transwoman Dr Marci Bowers, has reassessed "puberty blockers" as a course of action in teens experiencing gender dysphoria.

extract

But that new orthodoxy has gone too far, according to two of the most prominent providers in the field of transgender medicine: Dr. Marci Bowers, a world-renowned vaginoplasty specialist who operated on reality-television star Jazz Jennings; and Erica Anderson, a clinical psychologist at the University of California San Francisco’s Child and Adolescent Gender Clinic.

In the course of their careers, both have seen thousands of patients. Both are board members of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), the organization that sets the standards worldwide for transgender medical care. And both are transgender women.

Earlier this month, Anderson told me she submitted a co-authored op-ed to The New York Times warning that many transgender healthcare providers were treating kids recklessly. The Timespassed, explaining it was “outside our coverage priorities right now.”

Over the past few weeks, I have spoken at length to both women about the current direction of their field and where they feel it has gone wrong. On some issues, including their stance on puberty blockers, they raised concerns that appear to question the current health guidelines set by WPATH — which Bowers is slated to lead starting in 2022.

WPATH, for instance,recommendsthat for many gender dysphoric and gender non-conforming kids, hormonal puberty suppression begin at theearly stages of puberty. WPATH has also insisted since 2012 that puberty blockers are “fully reversible interventions.”

When I asked Anderson if she believes that psychological effects of puberty blockers are reversible, she said: “I’m not sure.” When asked whether children in the early stages of puberty should be put on blockers,Bowers said: “I’m not a fan.”

When I asked Bowers if she still thought puberty blockers were a good idea, from a surgical perspective, she said: “This is typical of medicine. We zig and then we zag, and I think maybe we zigged a little too far to the left in some cases.” She added “I think there was naivete on the part of pediatric endocrinologists who were proponents of early [puberty] blockade thinking that just this magic can happen, that surgeons can do anything.”

I asked Bowers whether she believed WPATH had been welcoming to a wide variety of doctors’ viewpoints — including those concerned about risks, skeptical of puberty blockers, and maybe even critical of some of the surgical procedures?

“There are definitely people who are trying to keep out anyone who doesn’t absolutely buy the party line that everything should be affirming, and that there’s no room for dissent,” Bowers said. “I think that’s a mistake.”

Bowers is not only among the most respected gender surgeons in the world but easily one of the most prolific: she has built or repaired more than 2,000 vaginas, the procedure known as vaginoplasty.She rose to celebrity status appearing on the hit reality-television show “I Am Jazz,” which catalogues and choreographs the life of Jazz Jennings, arguably the country’s most famous transgender teen.

In January 2019, Jeanette Jennings threw her famous daughter a “Farewell to Penis” party. Over a million viewers looked in on guests feasting on meatballs and miniature wieners in the Jennings’ Mediterranean-style Florida home. Family and friends cheered as Jazz sliced into a penis-shaped cake. The rather complicated upcoming procedure came to seem as little more than a Sweet Sixteen.

By that point, Jazz was already Timemagazine’s top 25 most influential teen, the co-author of a bestselling children’s book and the inspiration for a plastic doll. She had served as youth ambassador to the Human Rights Campaign, and she had about one million Instagram followers. Hers was no longer just a personal story but an advertisement for a lifestyle and an industry.

On the day of the procedure — dutifully recorded for Instagram — Jazz’s sister, Ari, teasingly wiggled a sausage in front of the camera. As Jazz was about to be wheeled into the operating room, she snapped her fingers and said, “Let’s do this!”

The vaginoplasty she underwent is what surgeons call a “penile inversion,” in which surgeons use the tissue from the penis and testicles to create a vaginal cavity and clitoris. With grown men, a penile inversion was eminently doable. With Jazz, it was much more difficult.

Like thousands of adolescents in America treated for gender dysphoria (severe discomfort in one’s biological sex), Jazz had been put on puberty blockers. In Jazz’s case, they began at age 11. So at age 17, Jazz’s penis was the size and sexual maturity of an 11-year-old’s. As Bowers explained to Jazz and her family ahead of the surgery,Jazz didn’t have enough penile and scrotal skin to work with. So Bowers took a swatch of Jazz’s stomach lining to complement the available tissue.

At first, Jazz’s surgery seemed to have gone fine, but soon after she said experienced “crazy pain.” She was rushed back to the hospital, where Dr. Jess Ting was waiting. “As I was getting her on the bed, I heard something go pop,” Ting said in an episode of “I Am Jazz.” Jazz’s new vagina — or neovagina, as surgeons say — had split apart.

www.bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle

CheeseMmmm · 13/12/2021 01:30

Foxgoose I can't see how your point relates to a statement that seems to mean.

Determination is exclusively a male trait.

CheeseMmmm · 13/12/2021 01:30

Anyone who has determination must be male.

I mean that's a totally different thing.

foxgoosefinch · 13/12/2021 01:30

Who on the thread said determination was an exclusively male trait? I missed that?

CheeseMmmm · 13/12/2021 01:45

Well it's not been confirmed but RMW last post/ couple of posts, can't think of any other way to read what said.

I'll find it hold on.

CheeseMmmm · 13/12/2021 01:53

@RobinMoiraWhite

Given that I am, apparently simultaneously, thinking only of myself AND pushing a political agenda, and don’t know what I am talking about AND any show of determination proves I am male, I will leave the thread there.
This one.

Reading again. I think it more says that I believe that determination = male.

Maybe?

That's a really strange thing to come to mind anyway. I mean it's not a thing in most people's brains to even come out.

That determination = male.

If that was what meant and RMW took me mentioning their determination. As an insult. When it was entirely meant to be recognising that RMW has determination. S positive trait and one that I included or at least implied when I talked about their education work etc. And given they took up law a while after other role/s. Qualified practiced and got to be a barrister. I think it's clear that takes determination! Which is a compliment!

Plus given what I've chatted to RMW about during the the thread it seems to have come from nowhere, it makes zero sense.

FlyingOink · 13/12/2021 02:25

@NotBadConsidering

Come off it Robin, you’re a barrister you can do better than that. You’ve written a book on this issue, are a regular contributor towards this political debate as evidenced by the article in the OP, and you legally represent Stonewall, the most politically active group in the whole debate. Of course you have a political agenda. You want to take part and impart your point of view, influence and legal abilities to this political debate. If you didn’t, no one here would have ever heard of you.

But you use your singular experience, and the fantastical idea of what your singular alternative reality might have been, as the basis for much of what you bring to the discussion, and ignore the questions about how that single experience can be applied to other children who aren’t the 12 year old you. You think you could have had capacity to consent, but don’t engage about how to assess the consent of others, and are happy to leave your personal experience dangling in articles that are used to influence wider decision-making. So yes, you are simultaneously only thinking of yourself and pushing a political agenda.

Grin
Helleofabore · 13/12/2021 03:40

I will leave the thread there.

Did I miss it then?

Did we get an acknowledgment of the fact that young females are being put at significantly increased risk of adverse long term life limiting and life shortening side effects to accommodate male’s desire to ‘pass’ in this push for puberty blockers? That Robin’s advocacy of puberty blocker treatment is putting young females at great risk, but of course, not one male advocate can mention that because it would be incredibly unfair on young females to not get equal opportunity here.

And, of course, such an acknowledgment would point out that the mantra of ‘fully reversible’ is a lie, and we cannot have that pointed out.

Nor can we have it pointed out that a male body is not ‘just like a female body’ at all, juvenile or adult.

I am not surprised though. Imagine if a barrister who is representing Stonewall in a major case acknowledged this.

It is always important however that readers understand what questions have been avoided, cherry picked and why.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 13/12/2021 03:50

Yes, Helleabore, the prospects for young female transitioners are frankly, heartbreaking. In my last post, I focused on the effects on young male transitioners, but it looks terrible for young females.

The consequences for girls who were prescribed GnRH agoniststo delay puberty temporarily seem to have been dire.

extract

For years, Sharissa Derricott, 30, had no idea why her body seemed to be failing. At 21, a surgeon replaced her deteriorated jaw joint. She’s been diagnosed with degenerative disc disease and fibromyalgia, a chronic pain condition. Her teeth are shedding enamel and cracking.

None of it made sense to her until she discovered a community of women online who describe similar symptoms and have one thing in common: All had taken a drug called Lupron.

Thousands of parents chose to inject their daughters with the drug, which was approved to shut down puberty in young girls but also is commonly used off-label to help short kids grow taller.

The drug’s pediatric version comes with few warnings about long-term side effects. It is also used in adults to fight prostate cancer or relieve uterine pain and the Food and Drug Administration has warnings on the drug’s adult labels about a variety of side effects.

More than 10,000 adverse event reports filed with the FDA reflect the experiences of women who’ve taken Lupron. The reports describe everything from brittle bones to faulty joints.

In interviews and in online forums, women who took the drug as young girls or initiated a daughter’s treatment described harsh side effects that have been well-documented in adults.

Women who used Lupron a decade or more ago to delay puberty or grow taller described the short-term side effects listed on the pediatric label: pain at the injection site, mood swings, and headaches. Yet they also described conditions that usually affect people much later in life. A 20-year-old from South Carolina was diagnosed with osteopenia, a thinning of the bones, while a 25-year-old from Pennsylvania has osteoporosis and a cracked spine. A 26-year-old in Massachusetts needed a total hip replacement. A 25-year-old in Wisconsin, like Derricott, has chronic pain and degenerative disc disease.

“It just feels like I’m being punished for basically being experimented on when I was a child,” said Derricott, of Lawton, Okla. “I’d hate for a child to be put on Lupron, get to my age and go through the things I have been through.”

Helleofabore · 13/12/2021 04:08

Thank you for posting this Purgatory.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 13/12/2021 06:12

Thank you for such great links and extracts. This information needs to be bought into the light.

I think the 'determination' issue may have started from my reply to Robin in relation to Robin's post suggesting that if Robin had been a woman early in her career she'd have has as much success as she did as a man. I think that fails to acknowledge the structural barriers women face and fails to acknowledge tharlt, as a group, women are often socialised into looking after each other and being pleasant rather than being as dogged qnd self confident as men are. Of course there are many very determined women. In the face of such massive structural barriers women's rights would have taken no steps forward withoutbl such determined women. But that doesn't mean that Robin's assertion that things would have been no different if she'd been perceived as a woman. Such a statement should not be accepted as it's a denial of the external but also internalised factors which oppress women.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 13/12/2021 06:15

I don't think the assertion that one can't be only thinking of oneself and simultaneously pushing a political agenda should be accepted either. The political agenda is born from naive self interest. People use their power however they can to push the agendas that matter to them. Robin is doing so with an agenda conceived in self interest.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 13/12/2021 11:01

I've just remembered the account by one MNer of a Swedish documentary on young transitioners.

This is a direct link to the documentary. www.svtplay.se/video/33313874/uppdrag-granskning/uppdrag-granskning-transbarnen

This is in Swedish only for now. A trans child, Leo was treated for puberty blockers for 4 years. Leo ended up with osteoporosis (significantly below any normal bone density interval), fractures in the back, constant pain and worse mental state.

The journalist also found an additional 12 cases in Stockholm only where children had serious side effects (bone fractures, deep regret from voice changes, injuries, deteriorating mental health and significant weight gains). Leo’s case was not reported and not one of these.

Leo’s parents were not informed of the risk and the doctor that warned the parents about the side effects was reported to the management and silenced (words like incitement was used).

The psychiatric staff initially blamed everything on the hormone team. The head of the department with the hormones claimed in the interview to never have seen the reports from the psychiatric team.

Investigation only seem to have started after the journalist made the program and it wasn’t possible to cover up any more.

And this was Astrid Lindgren’s children’s hospital, one of the hospitals that at least stopped with this treatment. Other hospitals are happily going and claims that the treatment side effects doesn’t worry them.

The program finishes with that nobody know the number of children with serious side effects (some seem to be covered up). Some other Swedish hospitals keep going.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4410679-Trans-children-in-Sweden-serious-side-effect-cover-ups-by-hospital