Prospect Magazine: Kathleen Stock v Robin Moira White

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Great discussion.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/essays/gender-wars-two-opposing-perspectives-on-the-trans-and-womens-rights-debate

Gender wars: two opposing perspectives on the trans and women’s rights debate
A lawyer and philosopher respond to seven propositions—ranging from single-sex spaces to puberty blockers for children

The point is it's fantasy.

Precisely.

The whole edifice is built upon a fantasy. Without a solid foundation, it requires constant shoring-up to keep it erect.

@CheeseMmmm

Just had a quick squiz at RMW bio. Quick history, varied and interesting background.

Born 1963

Say blockers age 13 and then hormones. Idea would look totally female when out and about etc. So from 1976 ish.

First job iirc manager railways , poss engineer?
Think science degree impy
At some point must have trained qualified lawyer
Presumably practiced law for some time.
Before called to bar 1995.

I am happy to say that the probability of following that path if perceived as young woman/ then woman is realistically pretty much nil.

I don't know when looking back whether the idea of a totally different life is what appeals or not.

The point is it's fantasy. Things were v different for girls born then. I was born 70s and it was v different in 80s even to now.

Has RMW considered realistically what things they have now, would never have come to be?

That's aside from all the impacts of no puberty, lifelong medical needs, possible impacts due to medication etc.

Yes, and the whole issue I have with middle aged males fantasising with rose tinted spectacles about a life that could have been and never mentioning the obvious negative effects, is that this message has permeated to children, mostly females, who hear this message of “life would have been better with puberty blockers” and now a huge number of teenage girls have ended up on them. It’s completely irresponsible.

People who have lived a life that isn’t possible with puberty blockers - sexual relationships, family, normal bone health, normal growth, a voice useful to their career - should not be touting a life with none of those things for children they don’t know with the evidence being what it is.

Yes. My experience is that most 11 to 12 year-olds are in a 'hyper rational' phase, where they have a level of cognitive development that is not matched by any emotional maturity. They over-emphasise free will, the power of the will, of rationality and technology. (Some people never seem to grow beyond this stage). Perfect seed-beds and advocates for utopian visions, such as transhumanism.

Most girls (most children, I think) mature emotionally as puberty hormones take hold and become far more empathetic, relationship-focused and self-aware.

That gap between puberty at 11-13 and a desire for sexual relationships is usually a few years. Between that and ability to participate in mature relationships even longer, likewise adult cognitive development and understanding of risk (happens at around 25).

So the idea that a pre-pubescent child, at 10-12, could understand the implications of a choice that will affect their emotional and sexual development and weigh up the risks and benefits, is pure bunk.

The idea that adults might look back on their own hyper-rational yet emotionally immature 12 year-old state and dream of a simpler world, in which sex, emotions and relationships hadn't gone and complicated everything, forced them to relate to others and others to them, instead of allowing them to remain free to pursue their own insular, linear, utopian path, is unsurprising.

I am happy to say that the probability of following that path if perceived as young woman/ then woman is realistically pretty much nil.

I don't know when looking back whether the idea of a totally different life is what appeals or not.

The point is it's fantasy. Things were v different for girls born then. I was born 70s and it was v different in 80s even to now.

Has RMW considered realistically what things they have now, would never have come to be?

I know that Robin has been told this across different threads in the past. They have been given some pretty direct posts of just how different their life would have been if magically they were perceived as a female from puberty.

Like in many aspects, the reality must be quite hard to accept when you have built up a sweet alternative life. One that is not grounded in the realities for females of that time. Of framing it with modern notions and ignoring the degree male privilege has played in their life to get them where they are now.

But we see this regularly when mature transitioned males post their support for puberty blockers.

I just want to again restate that ‘some’ posters also continue to post their support for usage of blockers while completely ignoring the increased negative impact on young female transitioners. Every. Time.

I say some, because over time some mature male transitioners have realised they can no longer ignore the evidence and have stated they understand the much higher risk of life shortening, life limiting effects to females. Maybe one day Robin too will acknowledge these?

You think that women can never be the oppressor, like what, can never do no wrong?
Because, woman?

When we talk about oppression we are talking about groups. It's a feature of group dynamics that they can organise into a hierarchy with one group holding more power than the other. It's nothing to do with individuals' morality.

In terms of sex, women are in various ways disadvantaged compared to men. This is the basis of feminism.

We can use this kind of analysis when discussing racism or classism, too.

Feminism doesn't mean women are incapable of ever doing wrong, that would be absurd.

What’s also noticeable, is that those mature male transitioners who have realised they can no longer ignore the evidence, just talk about the obvious negatives. For example Marci Bowers has now come out against puberty blockers because of the obvious impacts on surgical options.

But where are the males celebrating and championing not using puberty blockers? Where are the males who are convinced people can’t tell they’re male, are happy having had a life of sexual relationships, have a family, are happy with their current physical state, appreciate what they’ve had in life and know the negatives and want to help children get through it? Are we to believe there aren’t any? Every single adult who is trans wishes they’d never gone through puberty?

Why do so few trans adults say “kids, puberty is important”? Why do so many remain silent when other TRAs advocate for making sure children never experience what they have?

You think that women can never be the oppressor, like what, can never do no wrong?
Because, woman?

Think of this using analogies. If one Jewish person does something wrong, does that mean there is no anti-seminism? If a black person commits a crime, does that mean there is no racism? Clearly not in both example. So yes, of course women do things wrong and use their authority for ill. That, however, does not mean there is no sexism. Clearly what is being talked about is group oppression. I hope that helps you understand better.

@CheeseMmmm

Just had a quick squiz at RMW bio. Quick history, varied and interesting background.

Born 1963

Say blockers age 13 and then hormones. Idea would look totally female when out and about etc. So from 1976 ish.

First job iirc manager railways , poss engineer?
Think science degree impy
At some point must have trained qualified lawyer
Presumably practiced law for some time.
Before called to bar 1995.

I am happy to say that the probability of following that path if perceived as young woman/ then woman is realistically pretty much nil.

I don't know when looking back whether the idea of a totally different life is what appeals or not.

The point is it's fantasy. Things were v different for girls born then. I was born 70s and it was v different in 80s even to now.

Has RMW considered realistically what things they have now, would never have come to be?

That's aside from all the impacts of no puberty, lifelong medical needs, possible impacts due to medication etc.

A really interesting speculation - and plainly one that I have thought about.

I joined British Railways as an Operations Management trainee, not engineering, although that's a reasonable guess given a first degree from Imperial, London, and my exact contemporaries (and friends) were Dyan Crowther (now HS1) and Howard Smith (Crossrail) - both easily google-able. My career followed a path very close to theirs until it was ended by gender reassignment discrimination in 1990. I note the comments about realism / fantasy. Well, as a scientist turned lawyer, I quite like evidence and so think I have some from their paths. My gender dysphoria was known to my employer from early in my training and had not proved a problem until one senior manager took a different view - even though by then I had several years of solid achievement on my CV.

But I do have a varied background as you say and have strong langauges. I know that I was fairly introverted coping with gender dysphoria all on my own through my teenage years, and might have been more outgoing without that, so hard to say what career choices I would have made. Some form of public service was always high on the agenda.

I was fortunate to be able to turn to law as a second career and a few folk appear to find my work helpful. The bar is very accepting and understanding of 'difference' and has a structure which means you do not have to fit a sausage-machine profile. It has some way to go in ensuring that women and ethnic minorities make the progress that they should but at least that is on the profession's agenda.

I can say that, even give the state of knowledge and uncertainties about the risks of early transition I would have taken it. I would never seek to be prescriptive about the rights and wrongs of that choice for anyone else.

I can say that, even give the state of knowledge and uncertainties about the risks of early transition I would have taken it. I would never seek to be prescriptive about the rights and wrongs of that choice for anyone else.

Hi Robin. I tend to agree about not being prescriptive about the rights and wrongs of this (or just about any) choice for an individual. With regards to puberty blockers and other-sex hormones then, the question becomes whether a person is really able to make an informed choice themselves. I would be interested to hear whether (and if so how) a pre-pubescent child can make an informed decision about something which such broad and life-long implications. How can someone who has never experienced sexual desire make an informed decision which permanently impacts their sex life? I do feel for those small number of people who continue to feel dysphoric about their gender into adulthood - even though I have no idea what a 'gender identity' feels like - and I can see why those people (you included) wish you could have gone heavily down the medical route much younger. But as yet we have no way of knowing which children will continue to feel that they want to present physically like a member of the opposite sex. So we are in danger of permanently impacting on the physical health and development of a large number of people in order for a much smaller number to get the outcome they want. Does that bother you? If we had a way of knowing which group a child was in, things would be very different. But we don't and I think we are a very long way from being able to do that.

I can say that, even give the state of knowledge and uncertainties about the risks of early transition I would have taken it.

You can say this with decades of understanding and experience. You cannot possibly say that your 12 year old self would have understood what this would have meant. All that can be said is your 12 year old self would have made this decision without any comprehension or ability to consent.

The bar is very accepting and understanding of 'difference' and has a structure which means you do not have to fit a sausage-machine profile. It has some way to go in ensuring that women and ethnic minorities make the progress that they should but at least that is on the profession's agenda.

Not trying to derail but I do find this interesting, as law superficially seems a "traditional" field but actually there seem to be some great success stories. I wonder if the legal profession will continue to thrive in the face of the defunding of so much of it and/or whether it will undergo real change in terms of the people that make up the profession?

@OldCrone

On the issue of passing, I'd like to know why this is seen as so important to trans people. Why is other people's perception of them so important to them? What motivation can there be to 'pass' other than to deceive others that they are something they are not?

I have a similar difficulty understanding passing in the context of current genderism. My out-of-date understanding of trans ppl being those who want to be the opposite sex and wish other people to treat and perceive them as such - of course "passing" is very desirable.

But in the current thinking of gender being an entirely separate thing inside you, unrelated to sex, and apparently nothing to do with masculinity or femininity even (? have never had this question answered so a bit unclear here) - your appearance is irrelevant, it's your gender feeling that counts which by definition is not observable. How does "passing" represent a gender feeling? How does a gender "match" a sex?

@MonsignorMirth

The bar is very accepting and understanding of 'difference' and has a structure which means you do not have to fit a sausage-machine profile. It has some way to go in ensuring that women and ethnic minorities make the progress that they should but at least that is on the profession's agenda.

Not trying to derail but I do find this interesting, as law superficially seems a "traditional" field but actually there seem to be some great success stories. I wonder if the legal profession will continue to thrive in the face of the defunding of so much of it and/or whether it will undergo real change in terms of the people that make up the profession?

Yes, and I apologise for the diversion.

I practise (as most of my colleagues at Old Square do) in employment and discrimination law, where there is little or no public funding. (I cannot speak for the criminal bar where it is all much tougher.) Last year Old Square had 4 colleagues appointed to silk - becoming QC's - of those 4: 3 women, 3 persons of colour, and 4 religions or belief systems. So pretty diverse. And we get brilliant applicants for our two pupillages each year, so I see no sign of our quality dropping.

That's good to hear. Yes, I was thinking more about Criminal Law.
I guess I'm particularly interested in class diversity as well (as in socio-economic background).

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

I can say that, even give the state of knowledge and uncertainties about the risks of early transition I would have taken it. I would never seek to be prescriptive about the rights and wrongs of that choice for anyone else.

Hi Robin. I tend to agree about not being prescriptive about the rights and wrongs of this (or just about any) choice for an individual. With regards to puberty blockers and other-sex hormones then, the question becomes whether a person is really able to make an informed choice themselves. I would be interested to hear whether (and if so how) a pre-pubescent child can make an informed decision about something which such broad and life-long implications. How can someone who has never experienced sexual desire make an informed decision which permanently impacts their sex life? I do feel for those small number of people who continue to feel dysphoric about their gender into adulthood - even though I have no idea what a 'gender identity' feels like - and I can see why those people (you included) wish you could have gone heavily down the medical route much younger. But as yet we have no way of knowing which children will continue to feel that they want to present physically like a member of the opposite sex. So we are in danger of permanently impacting on the physical health and development of a large number of people in order for a much smaller number to get the outcome they want. Does that bother you? If we had a way of knowing which group a child was in, things would be very different. But we don't and I think we are a very long way from being able to do that.

I can only speak about how I know I felt.

I cant ask my parents because they are no longer with us but I did have this discussion towards the end of my life and their view was they wish they had known both how I felt and what the options were.

I agree, it isnt perfect but young people, their parents and their clinicians have to have the best chance of being the people most likely to get this right - with the very best help and support. I agree that each detransitioner is a tragedy but so is each child denied the pathway that is right for them.

I dont have the wisdom (or the arrogance) to think I can make that choice for others. But I will defend their right to make that choice and fight for them to have the best and most professional help in doing so.

I would hate to be the child of a late transitioner who spends much of their time telling everyone they wished they had been able to take puberty blockers and transition early.

Whatever about career prospects, it seems a bit insensitive to openly admit to a wish that your children had never been born.

I agree that each detransitioner is a tragedy but so is each child denied the pathway that is right for them.

The problem being is that the vast majority of children will not be able to weigh up the information to make a decision like this. And left to their own devices, the majority will simply turn out to be gay, not transgender. We cannot have a situation where the majority in this demographic of children have their lives destroyed by the medical effects of innapproriate transition, in order to support a tiny minority who may have benefited from this pathway.

@TurquoiseBaubles

I would hate to be the child of a late transitioner who spends much of their time telling everyone they wished they had been able to take puberty blockers and transition early.

Whatever about career prospects, it seems a bit insensitive to openly admit to a wish that your children had never been born.

I dont have children.

But I know many transitioners who do, and who are supported and loved by their children. To wish that your life had taken a different path doesnt mean that you dont celebrate the good things that life has brought you.

One thing pretty much universal to the trans friends I have - all of whom have known adversity - is a joy in the life they have.

I can only speak about how I know I felt.

You have repeatedly ignored the multitude of posts on this thread and others pointing out its not about how you felt, or about how you think you felt, or about how children now feel, it’s about their ability to fully understand and consent.

Being sure of feelings is not the same as being sure of capacity. Why do you ignore this point of discussion?

One thing pretty much universal to the trans friends I have - all of whom have known adversity - is a joy in the life they have

I presume you don't have many or even any people who have detransitioned in your friendship group. You seem to make it solely personal and about you, without considering the bigger picture or potential harm to others.

If they have joy in the life they have, why aren’t they telling children that they can have a joyful life as a trans adult without the need for puberty blockers?

@NotBadConsidering

I can only speak about how I know I felt.

You have repeatedly ignored the multitude of posts on this thread and others pointing out its not about how you felt, or about how you think you felt, or about how children now feel, it’s about their ability to fully understand and consent.

Being sure of feelings is not the same as being sure of capacity. Why do you ignore this point of discussion?

OK, fair question.

Well, the first thing to say is that my 58 year old self's view of my capacity at 12 may not be the most reliable piece of evidence, but...

... at 10 and a half, as a member of a strong church-going family in a Somerset village where my father was Chairman of the Parochial Church Council, and the vicar led a bible study class for the senior class in the village school, I decided that I did not have religion and was able to express that conviction with sufficient cogency and conviction that I was allowed not to attend chuch again. And I have never waivered in that conviction. Were this not social media, I would tell you the tale of that fateful Sunday morning, which I look back on with enormous respect for the way my father handled it, and even more respect for the Reverend Luxmore-Ball.

My belief is that I had all the capacity required to make a choice about my gender aged 12.

Which does not mean, of course, that anyone else does or does not have that capacity or that it is, or is not right for a parent to give that consent, all of which depends on the facts of the particular case and, to some extent, the treating clinician.

It's easier to change your mind about going to church than it is to detransition.

My belief is that I had all the capacity required to make a choice about my gender aged 12.

You believe that you had the capacity aged 12 to make a decision to be sterilised and to have treatment which would mean that you would never experience normal sexual activity as an adult? Really?

@TinselAngel

It's easier to change your mind about going to church than it is to detransition.

Yes, of course. But for me, and in our family, it was a matter based on a similar level of conviction / understanding / capacity, and I was asked whether I thought I had capacity at 12 - that is the evidence I have.