Prospect Magazine: Kathleen Stock v Robin Moira White

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Great discussion.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/essays/gender-wars-two-opposing-perspectives-on-the-trans-and-womens-rights-debate

Gender wars: two opposing perspectives on the trans and women’s rights debate
A lawyer and philosopher respond to seven propositions—ranging from single-sex spaces to puberty blockers for children

There was a recent video of a trans woman assaulting a girl who challenged her in a female toilet - can't remember what country it was in, but it wasn't the UK.

Here's the incident in question:

4w.pub/disturbing-footage-brazil/

What is hilarious is the lack of understanding of how courts and tribunals work.

Courts and tribunals are staffed by human beings.

As human beings, they are subject to the same unconscious biases as other human beings.

Therefore, they carry unconscious biases assigning less authority and credibility to women than to men, and to female voices relative to male ones.

Therefore, courts and tribunals, in common with every other area of human endeavour, are affected by unconscious bias against women.

Hope that’s more clear now!

That's fucking sickening NecessaryScene. That woman is subjected to a brutal attack by a male wearing woman face. And these men get away with it time and time again because they claim oppression. Its time for everyone to stand up and say it. #youarenotawomen. Call it out for exactly what it is. An assault on women's rights and bodies. Everyone has had enough of this shit now. Time to stop. And boot these aggressive fuckers out.

@lovelyweathertoday

Robin isn't successful in a case therefore bias towards male voices doesn't exist. You sure do save researchers a lot of time.

I assume Margaret Thatcher becoming prime minister proved having children doesn't affect women's careers generally as well.

and Margaret Thatcher took extensive voice coaching lessons to alter her voice and tone to minimise men dismissing her as shrill and hysterical when she spoke.

No, definitely no bias towards male voices. How many men have been deemed to have gravitas when they speak and how many women have been described thus?

[quote NecessaryScene]There was a recent video of a trans woman assaulting a girl who challenged her in a female toilet - can't remember what country it was in, but it wasn't the UK.

Here's the incident in question:

4w.pub/disturbing-footage-brazil/[/quote]
Dear God, that's sick.

And it only takes one. Women know, we absolutely bloody know, that challenging men is a very dangerous tactic.

For crying out loud, the patriarchy wouldn't exist otherwise.

There was one I saw a while ago of a transwomen in Liverpool I think it was, attacking a girl with a hammer. But there's many more incidents of this nature.

Margaret Thatcher took extensive voice coaching lessons to alter her voice and tone to minimise men dismissing her as shrill and hysterical when she spoke

This was a major complaint about Hilary Clinton too. Men didn’t like her voice, to the point that it made them irrationally angry.

@allmywhat

>Margaret Thatcher took extensive voice coaching lessons to alter her voice and tone to minimise men dismissing her as shrill and hysterical when she spoke

This was a major complaint about Hilary Clinton too. Men didn’t like her voice, to the point that it made them irrationally angry.

Yes, Hillary also got derided as being 'shrill'.

*What is hilarious is the lack of understanding of how courts and tribunals work.

Robin's voice with its manly gravitas" didn't come to much in The Times Scotland Employment Tribunal case.*

You're right I don't know much about how the courts and tribunals work. I haven't claimed to. Indeed I have clearly said I don't. I don't need to though to understand that they are operated by people. There is absolutely no sensible reason to assume that they are not subject to the same unconscious bias as everyone else so you're mocking of people who don't work in the courts is not making the point you think it is.

Neither it the point about Robin losing a case. There are cases which black people have won against white people. That clearly is not evidence that there is no institutional racism in the UK. What do you think Robin losing actually proves?

[quote NecessaryScene]There was a recent video of a trans woman assaulting a girl who challenged her in a female toilet - can't remember what country it was in, but it wasn't the UK.

Here's the incident in question:

4w.pub/disturbing-footage-brazil/[/quote]
Thanks. Horrific.

And illustrates the point that most of us, most of the time, put up with all sorts of shit from men because we're afraid to challenge them.

RobinMoiraWhite
Well, my experience is that I dont get misgendered when I am seen as well as heard, and I will live with that.

That is amazingly naive from someone who has presumably been around for a few years.

Of course you don't, dear; people are too polite to wish to get into a squabble with you about something which really doesn't matter to them at all. (If it does, they will remove themselves as soon as is practically possible rather than make any comment, for the reasons cited below.) You do need to understand that the only person who cares whether you "pass" or not is you, and rather than bother about it, other people will say nowt. They may also worry lest a male person who was called on not looking like a female one might do a standard male thing and attack them, physically or verbally. It's not all about not being able to tell, nor about being kind; it may just be self-preservation.

Not to mention that if they "misgender" you people risk all sorts of penalties, legal as well as social. A 19-year-old with Aspergers was convicted of "using abusive or insulting words to cause harassment" because he asked aloud whether a police officer was male or female -- the exact words he used were "is it a boy or is it a girl?" He couldn't tell, so having a condition which means that he is not entirely aware of social niceties he asked; asking was a crime. Curfew and a £590 fine. I don't suppose he understood those either, poor chap.

CheeseMmmm
Margaret Thatcher did the voice-training to change her voice after that well-known feminist Clive James described her as sounding like "a cat sliding down a blackboard" because she had the voice associated with being a woman. IE, not deep enough to suit him. (On the other hand, Michelle Obama has quite a deep voice and was attacked for not really being a woman. Go figure.)

I remember on a thread here a few years ago there was a newly transitioned male who made a video of their first time using the women’s toilet to change from typical trousers and business shirt to a dress. They came out of a stall and three school girls asked why he was there filming in the public toilets. (London I think). They filmed themselves chasing the girls up the street yelling at them. It was ok Youtube but I never have been able to find it again.

But it has stuck in my mind ever since. It made me aware of the entitlement these people feel to have access to female toilets and the quick claim of victimhood if questioned.

Blibbyblobby
it is very common to feel that observation as an attack and therefore assume the person making it must have biased or malign motivations rather than expressing an honest observation.
It is much more comfortable for the psyche to believe that than to consider that one's honestly felt beliefs about oneself internally might not be how one appears (or indeed behaves) in the world to others. And the psyche likes to take the easy way when it can.

I can still remember the shock I felt when I heard a recording of my voice. It sounded nothing like what I hear in my head, yet others assured me that it did sound like me.

Similarly, seeing one's face in a mirror which shows it the way round that others see it is strange, as is seeing one's profile in one of those corner-mirrors. They do not look as one thinks that one does.

In each case, objective reality and subjective impression don't match, but one would have to be rather stupid to assert that the subjective impression was the only reality.

I think we can assume that Robin will remember the many times they have had this explained to them, nicely, politely through to very direct and bluntly on MN. I do not believe that they can ever claim that they do not know this. I think it has been muddied because of possible genital surgery and facial surgery.

But the reality is it is still a majority of women who actually do not want any males in the single sex spaces with them, some are on the fence with penis removal, but I don’t believe that if the Yougov survey was done every year that it would give the same results.

I think that more women know about this since that survey and now would be answering that ‘no, no males at all’.

I guess if you exist in a stonewall bubble, this might not occur to you. I know of not one female friend who would now answer that they would accept males in toilets even without a penis. Not one. 18 months ago, it would have been much less.

That was the no debate effect. It is diminishing like a tidal wave now.

Did Eddie Izzard, in his autobiography, not describe a similar situation where he found it highly amusing to scare a couple of young teenage girls in the female toilets?

@Helleofabore

I remember on a thread here a few years ago there was a newly transitioned male who made a video of their first time using the women’s toilet to change from typical trousers and business shirt to a dress. They came out of a stall and three school girls asked why he was there filming in the public toilets. (London I think). They filmed themselves chasing the girls up the street yelling at them. It was ok Youtube but I never have been able to find it again.

But it has stuck in my mind ever since. It made me aware of the entitlement these people feel to have access to female toilets and the quick claim of victimhood if questioned.

I think he wasn't actually transitioned and didn't for a while after that (in fact I am unsure whether it has happened yet); it was the first time he'd decided to go out dressed as a woman, or some such.

Famous name, can't remember it. He was very proud of his bravery in having attacked three schoolgirls who thought a male had no business in the women's lavatories and particularly had no business filming in there.

Ahhhh. So I wasn’t remembering wrong. At the time they had not publicly transitioned but was transitioned in private. I remember that quite clearly.

Have no idea who it was. But yes, that person was very proud to have run after 3 school girls who asked the question of why he was there and why he was filming.

I figured once I couldn’t find it that they received so much flack they took it down. It was abhorrent. Really totally narcissistic. The victimhood they claimed was sick. Who the fuck videos schoolgirls in the toilets in the very first instance? And then to put them all over YouTube?

If I ever saw those girls, I would thank them though. Brave girls.

And I say he, because he didn’t announce his pronouns and could well be a NB he/him for all I know. If anyone knows any different I will repost with appropriate amendments.

Not a whole lot of point discussing your victimhood really, when your response has been to shout at, intimidate, chase or in the case of the Brazilian video beat up the person you are trying to frame as the aggressor.

Whose only crime was to dare to have boundaries.

However, had it been an option for me not to have endured male puberty, then I would not face this difficulty, which is one reason from personal experience why I support tht being an option for trans young people who are sufficiently mature to take that decsion.

RMW doesn't have kids but I've heard this from several transwomen who do. Frankly I'd be pretty gutted to hear my dad say he'd rather have a high pitched voice than me around.

"Will her court technique change? “I think there are some differences between male and female advocates but I have always tried to borrow what you might call more female techniques such as controlling by silence, waiting for people to finish.” archive.md/tUfmk

[quote FlyingOink]However, had it been an option for me not to have endured male puberty, then I would not face this difficulty, which is one reason from personal experience why I support tht being an option for trans young people who are sufficiently mature to take that decsion.

RMW doesn't have kids but I've heard this from several transwomen who do. Frankly I'd be pretty gutted to hear my dad say he'd rather have a high pitched voice than me around.

"Will her court technique change? “I think there are some differences between male and female advocates but I have always tried to borrow what you might call more female techniques such as controlling by silence, waiting for people to finish.” archive.md/tUfmk[/quote]
If it had been an option for me not to endure female puberty I'd have opted out like a shot. RMW doesn't know she is born having ducked that bullet!

Robin still hasn't explained how a child of approx 11/12 can have the maturity and knowledge of what they are giving up, to pursue treatment which will very likely rob them of fertility and future sexual fulfilment

If it had been an option for me not to endure female puberty I'd have opted out like a shot. RMW doesn't know she is born having ducked that bullet!

Nah, I didn't enjoy it much but I have strong bones, an adult body and an adult brain. So it served its purpose.

@334bu

Did Eddie Izzard, in his autobiography, not describe a similar situation where he found it highly amusing to scare a couple of young teenage girls in the female toilets?

Here for anyone who hasn't seen it.

Eddie Izzard Got Chased By Three Teenage Girls on His First Day Wearing a Dress Out

Eddie is from the Pips Bunce school of 'Have cake and eat it'.

'Girl mode' for the toilets
'Boy mode' for the acting roles

'Girl mode' for the toilets
'Boy mode' for the acting roles

Trans mode for the Labour party votes.

Weird how they all seem to do this.