Prospect Magazine: Kathleen Stock v Robin Moira White

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Great discussion.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/essays/gender-wars-two-opposing-perspectives-on-the-trans-and-womens-rights-debate

Gender wars: two opposing perspectives on the trans and women’s rights debate
A lawyer and philosopher respond to seven propositions—ranging from single-sex spaces to puberty blockers for children

If women are going up to transwomen and pointing out their sex then they wouldn't be claiming no-one can tell, would they?

This is a major part of the issue.

Needmoresleep posted this link on the Lia Thomas thread. ( for reference www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4414643-Penn-s-Lia-Thomas-breaks-200-500-Free-records-in-meet-with-Princeton-Cornell?msgid=113212467#113212467 )

The Mail link.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10298137/SECOND-UPenn-swimmer-speaks-against-trans-Lia-Thomas-competing-womens-team-crowd-silent.html

It highlights the conundrum nicely. This male swimmer, Thomas, had said in recent interviews that they are fully supported by the rest of their team.

This week already, two of their team mates have told media that they are angry and certainly do not support this person. And this is just the start of the season. The first two or three weeks in.

This male swimmer is in full belief that they are supported, because the females on the team have been told to STFU! They are so angry, particularly after this male won on the weekend 38 seconds ahead of the female swimmers and laughed they were ‘cruising’ and had more to give. But this entitled male cannot see past their own need of what they wish to see.

It is the same for some males who declare they ‘pass’. It is because they need to think that partly, and partly it is because they have been told by people who love and care about them, or other women who genuinely can’t tell, that they pass, and it is partly because many of those women who notice will have a valid reason for not letting on that they notice.

Who would tell a male they don’t pass unless it become necessary, Ie, in single sex spaces. And then, how many would even allow facial expressions give them away due to fear.

But we will always have posters who declare that they don’t believe other women when they say they would be fearful to let on. Because it is not politically expedient that this is happening.

When the UK sports councils released their very good guidelines a major point within them was about how women were afraid to speak up. It was very important that that was publicly and officially acknowledged and it was good of them to do so.

Yes. Women's silence is interpreted as support or acquiescence.

In reality, women are silent because of threat to safety or personal reputation.

Then women's silence is used as evidence that there is no risk to safety or personal reputation.

So long as you stay quiet, nobody gets hurt.

This board is an anon internet forum (for the most part). So women are less at risk, and can state the truth.

This will be painted as being rude/mean/horrible etc.

Because for women to speak on this subject, offer their true feelings and thoughts, without fear or risk, is seen in itself as being unacceptable.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Women don't point it out when we are in a female space as it's intimidating.

Yes we are likely to get smacked in the mouth

Consent obstained under duress is not consent.

www.inbrief.co.uk/contract-law/duress-undue-influence-in-contracts/

And you only have to look at the threatening tone of posts about the proposed ‘gender critical day’ to understand why women have been silent for so long.

But yes, if women were allowed to state their stripped down truth without any social embellishments at all, I fully believe that those males would never had been left with the notion that they ‘pass’.

Even with extensive cosmetic surgery and voice training and movement training. There will be something that will give them away after short in-person contact. Hurtful though it may be to acknowledge.

On the subject of voice:

Public speaking when pregnant was so difficult, as my diaphragm was constricted by the pressure of all the organs that are displaced by a growing infant and womb. I got breathless and found it v hard to project. My speech rhythm was broken by having to take frequent breath pauses and this interrupted my flow and thought processes, too.

Diastasis recti affects at least one in three women and can persist long after pregnancy. This can have impact on respiratory issues, and voice. This singer details the effect on her during pregnancy:

singingsense.com/2015/04/02/singing-throughout-and-after-pregnancy-part-2/

Post partum, public speaking was also made harder by leaking breasts, postural issues (not to mention broken sleep because of the needs of a feeding infant).

This is on top of the existing fact of a woman's smaller lungs, quieter voice, different vocal chords, etc.

Before we even get to the perception of others, the increased weight, gravitas and authority ascribed to male voices compared to female voices.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10919-019-00307-0

www.nytimes.com/1981/02/02/style/relationships-voice-of-authority-still-male.html

Women face various speech and voice related disadvantages by virtue of our sex.

We are silenced in so many bloody ways. Thank god for Mumsnet.

@Shedmistress

One of the many dis-incentives for trans people to engage publicly with any form of discussion, is the general vileness we are exposed to on forums such as this, which go far beyond comments on the substance of what we say

What do you want to say?

I find males in female toilets generally vile. I don't know why they are there. Nobody does. But we aren't allowed to make a peep about it otherwise the male might turn on us. But you flip flop taking all the advantages of being male/trans/female as and when you want and we aren't allowed to challenge that?

Again as with other words bandied around - I'd like a definition of 'vile'. Talking about the male supremacist sub-conscious bias triggered by someone clearly sounding male, questioning whether transwomen's self-declared passing is a belief shared by women and talking about the dangers to women of creating a context which obliterates female-only spaces is not vile. It honestly can sound like vile to some means 'disagreeing with me/ not doing what I want'. It is unhelpful for people to take this personally as it tends to mean that they can't tolerate meaningful conversation. Of course it feels personal to the person who wants the world to believe sex to be other than it is and wants the concept of female-only spaces to be expanded so that they can also use them, but the feelings of one or a few people are not what should be the deciding factor in legal protections. If it were, which group of people would we listen to? At the core of this is a refusal to listen to women voicing their concerns. Which is what I personally find vile.

• there are many, many studies on the perception of differing amount of authority between male and female voices, btw, I just put up a couple of the first google results there.

Also would really still like to hear why my desire for a single sex space is overruled by Robin's desire to use a female space.

Well I am a 6'4" 19 stone rugby player. Broken nose a few years back, squashed ear, bit of a 'resting brute' face. But that's just what's happened in the past, it's superficial, I'd have played things differently, knowing what I do now, it isn't me.

We did some training with a ballerina at the club a few years back. About improving balance and agility. Seemed like a laugh.

Turns out I loved it. The poise, the elegance, the jumps, the artistry. The focus it gives me is amazing, it just takes over and transports me to another world, another way of being me. I'd never seen myself as elegant before but now, when I step into my ballet persona, I do.

When I walk down the street in ballet mode - I'm not talking tutus, that would be ridiculous, a trite pastiche, I'm talking elegance, poise, delicacy, femininity, feeling like a dancer, being a dancer in my head, my body, my movement, my actions, my everything, it's transformational - nobody has ever come up to me and said 'oy mate! you're not a ballet dancer'. Even when I've been in the men's loos, no man has challenged me about being a gender-free ballet dancer in a man's space.

Therefore everybody sees and agrees that I am a ballet dancer. I pass as a ballet dancer.

@KimikosNightmare

Why do you think the higher courts have a way to go? Genuine question, who holds more positions of power, men or women? What is the pay differential between men and and women in that context? Why do you think that recognising the structural misogyny is sexist?

I meant in the context of who is sitting on the benches of the higher courts- not who is appearing in the higher courts. Your question has nothing to do with the point I was making.

I think the interpretation put on Robin's comment by posters here is extremely sexist.

You (general you) have basically invented the scenario where you imagine female solicitors, barristers and advocates are overwhelmed by the manly gravitas of manly voices. It's nonsense

Who needs men to put women down when feminist are so happy to do it?

I've invented nothing. Please engage with the actual conversations rather than resort to childish insults. Have you ever read anything about unconscious bias? Do you not think that anything which clearly marks you out as a man would trigger such bias?

I don't know what you mean BTW re: who is sitting in the higher courts. I don't work in law but it sounds like you are saying that there are more man in positions of power in that context. Is that right?

@ArabellaScott

On the subject of voice:

Public speaking when pregnant was so difficult, as my diaphragm was constricted by the pressure of all the organs that are displaced by a growing infant and womb. I got breathless and found it v hard to project. My speech rhythm was broken by having to take frequent breath pauses and this interrupted my flow and thought processes, too.

Diastasis recti affects at least one in three women and can persist long after pregnancy. This can have impact on respiratory issues, and voice. This singer details the effect on her during pregnancy:

singingsense.com/2015/04/02/singing-throughout-and-after-pregnancy-part-2/

Post partum, public speaking was also made harder by leaking breasts, postural issues (not to mention broken sleep because of the needs of a feeding infant).

This is on top of the existing fact of a woman's smaller lungs, quieter voice, different vocal chords, etc.

Before we even get to the perception of others, the increased weight, gravitas and authority ascribed to male voices compared to female voices.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10919-019-00307-0

www.nytimes.com/1981/02/02/style/relationships-voice-of-authority-still-male.html

Women face various speech and voice related disadvantages by virtue of our sex.

We are silenced in so many bloody ways. Thank god for Mumsnet.

Yes. Thank you again Arabella for providing links.

You imagine female solicitors, barristers and advocates are overwhelmed by the manly gravitas of manly voices. It's nonsense

It's a very well evidenced phenomenon, widely researched and written on, from around - what? - 1970? - onwards.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

You (general you) have basically invented the scenario where you imagine female solicitors, barristers and advocates are overwhelmed by the manly gravitas of manly voices. It's nonsense

I wasn't really focused much on that tangent, but I thought the observation being made was that those men sitting and hearing the cases might be subconsciously swayed by male voices, not that female legal professionals arguing cases felt overwhelmed by encountering a male voiced counterpart.

I see no sexism in realising that women encounter sexism. I think such sexism could be classified as a subtype of testimonial injustice. I have seen "testimonial injustice" defined as the widespread shared preconceptions that lead to some people being considered less credible than others for personal characteristics beyond their control; for example, having higher, feminine voices.

Oh fgs. Firstly "those men" are likely to be women.

And that really isn't how a court or tribunal works but carry on belittling, well I suppose everyone involved.

@ArabellaScott

You imagine female solicitors, barristers and advocates are overwhelmed by the manly gravitas of manly voices. It's nonsense

It's a very well evidenced phenomenon, widely researched and written on, from around - what? - 1970? - onwards.

Oh well , that's me proved wrong. I mean there's research in 1970 says so.

As opposed to actually dealing with this in real life.

I think maybe @ArabellaScott that this research is part of the long line of facts which question the idea that a man can just feel like a woman, or transition to a woman without retaining any male supremacy. So along with the denigration of women and women's concerns, we now have a denigration of any awkward research (i.e. research which shows that to be untrue).

*Oh well , that's me proved wrong. I mean there's research in 1970 says so.

As opposed to actually dealing with this in real life.*

That's hilarious! You really don't understand how research works? It's not as easy as asking people whether something is a problem or not. That's kind of missing the unconscious bit? Before consciousness raising events, if you asked white people if racism was a problem, most would say no. If you ask black people, some would also say no. We internalise societies prejudices. They are most effective when we don't see them. Your own personal reflections on the small number of places you've worked (small compared to the number which are out there), absolutely does not trump research which has been going on SINCE 1970.

@NoNotMeNoSiree

when we don't they switch to personal male aggressive Where has she done that? None of Robins posts have been aggressive?

Apart from my example of Robin''s lack of consideration for women, the rest of the post was about TRAs in general. I thought that was clear.

@Lovelyricepudding

Your use of the word 'they' rather than 'she' should have made that clear. This is one reason why we need to protect 'they' as usually an indication that you are talking about a group of people rather than a specific person. I though Robin went by 'she' anyway? Is that right? In which case it is really clear that you are not singling her out.

I find males in female toilets generally vile. I don't know why they are there. Nobody does. But we aren't allowed to make a peep about it otherwise the male might turn on us.

And this is the reason men should not be in female toilets. Because it is threatening. It's intended to be much of the time. It provides huge excitement to those males. There's nothing else like it. Women being forced to shut up and validate. These males don't have solidarity for women or care about what they think. Women are just unwilling props to their role play.

Robin doesn't have respect for women who say no. Really Robin, I don't think the women here care much about this. It's clear you don't have respect any women who points out the obvious and doesn't validate.

I don't have respect for any male who abuse women's boundaries and continually gaslight them. These people damage women's safeguards and they sully the reputation of decent transwomen (and I can think of a few) who wouldn't dream of doing this to women.

There's no good reason that you can't come into the mens sex segregated spaces Robin. No one's going to touch you or even say anything to you. Really, men don't care that much. And let's face it, you're heavily protected by the law which is just dying to come down hard on actual transphobia. Stats show that in the UK, transwomen are pretty much the safest group out there. So there genuinely is little to worry about.

But really, we're all there just to pee. Just like you. So do the decent thing for once. Stop gaslighting women. And leave their spaces alone.

I have only posted a couple of pieces of evidence, Kimiko, because I had thought that this particular social issue was so widely acknowledged, well known and written about that it wasn't necessary to offer you a wide selection of links of the many studies that have shown evidence of differences in how male voices and female voices are perceived.

But there you go. Try googling 'male voice authority research' and you'll find many thousands more. Happy Christmas.

• also, bonus tip: If you add 'unconscious bias' to your search terms, you'll find loads of evidence of how yes, women are also affected by sexism wrt voice and the sex of the speaker and of how much of this sexism isn't even something we are consciously aware of.

Given that much recent research is on digital voices, AI, etc, you'll see that this issue has far from 'gone away' since the 70s. Just about as much as general sexism has 'gone away', I expect.

@NotBadConsidering

When the UK sports councils released their very good guidelines a major point within them was about how women were afraid to speak up. It was very important that that was publicly and officially acknowledged and it was good of them to do so.

Also in the House of Lords debate, one of the Lords said many baronesses, in the house of lords, had contacted him to say they're too scared to speak.

And of course, no one is missing the irony of being told how vile and spiteful women are for pointing out someone's appearance, in a discussion that argues for access because women don't point out someone's appearance.

@ArabellaScott

I have only posted a couple of pieces of evidence, Kimiko, because I had thought that this particular social issue was so widely acknowledged, well known and written about that it wasn't necessary to offer you a wide selection of links of the many studies that have shown evidence of differences in how male voices and female voices are perceived.

But there you go. Try googling 'male voice authority research' and you'll find many thousands more. Happy Christmas.

Did you have the expectation that after seeding the search terms it might have been impolite to shape the follow-up research, Arabella?

I wonder if this is a generational thing that some of us find hard to grasp? There does seem to be a sense of entitlement for some demographics that all of the work should be done, complete with reading notes and page references. That attitude is disappointing for the future development of scholarship in an educational setting but it's amplified on social media.

I wonder what it is that has led somebody to practice testimonial injustice and ascribe a credibility deficit to you that allows them to discount the references you cite?

It honestly can sound like vile to some means 'disagreeing with me/ not doing what I want'

I think when one hears an observation about oneself (either personally or about a group that one is part of), and that observation conflicts with one's self image, it is very common to feel that observation as an attack and therefore assume the person making it must have biased or malign motivations rather than expressing an honest observation.

It is much more comfortable for the psyche to believe that than to consider that one's honestly felt beliefs about oneself internally might not be how one appears (or indeed behaves) in the world to others. And the psyche likes to take the easy way when it can.

This is a general observation about people so I'm sure trans people are no exception.