If a general election was called, who would you vote for?

[Anothernamechange3]

Or really, who can I vote for? I don’t want to vote Tory, especially after today’s revelations. I also don’t feel happy voting Labour or Green, for reasons often discussed on this board. Is there a party you’d feel happy to vote to be in power if you had a chance to, say, tomorrow? Feeling pretty despondent

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48039984
30% of Labour voters, voted Leave. Although I think Brexit is old news now.

I'm not sure I agree with your synopsis, cheese, but it reminds me to go to bed

www.gov.uk/government/publications/nationality-and-borders-bill-deprivation-of-citizenship-factsheet/nationality-and-borders-bill-deprivation-of-citizenship-factsheet

This bill, just published by the current Tory government is terrifying for all citizens but it disproportionately impacts British Jews, other British minorities and the entire population of Northern Ireland.

It's a really quick and disturbing read.

Cheese -

We clearly have very different perceptions of the antisemitism issue, and we’re not going to resolve that here. I’d only point out that the “Jewish community” is not a monolithic block any more than women, the black community etc. and that there are plenty of Jewish members being expelled from Starmer’s Labour Party right now for not being The Right Kind Of Jew.

Your point about brexit however is probably the best possible illustration of exactly what I’ve been saying. I know loads of people like you who think it’s just so obvious that Labour should have stayed committed to Remain even after the country voted against it. I know roughly the same number who believe they lost because of their unwillingness to support the referendum result fully enough and just get on with leaving. It the latter position that is the widely accepted view why they lost the red wall, and it’s generally articulated within the context of Labour’s general betrayal of the working class. Both sides are utterly convinced they’re right, and that the rest of the country agrees with them and would have voted for them if they’d done what was so “obviously” right. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, and for a fault line between Labour’s two main demographics that was fatally split usunder long before 2019.

There’s only one thing that’s certain: they can’t possibly have done both.

Momentum.

It's the militant tendency division and infighting all over again.

**I imagine you remember all that, maybe more than me. I only remember from early 80s. I imagine that you would, given you've stated pretty certain you're the longest term labour supporter/ member on the thread. Would love to hear your thoughts on that period.

So momentum.
Schisms in the party.
Seemingly no interest in party cohesion, showing public esp supporters a party that means business. Strong, United, capable, impressive, an effective opposition really making things difficult for the Tories. That sort of thing.
Nope.
Splits, internal power struggles, people being pushed out, v strong opposing views internally being broadcast, written about. I watched some of the conference and two men know each other for years, long term party faithful. Totally disagreeing on fundamentals. One was a trade union boss I think. ON TV.

You mention that political parties aren't necessarily about getting in power. I think within labour that's the position. Battling over internal power. Electability? Winning votes, winning seats? Winning election? No sign that is even on the radar.

If caring about power, the power to CHANGE THINGS. Is not the point. Especially with the current govt and their actions.

Then what exactly is the fucking point?

Oink 70% is a majority.
And a pretty big one.

If JC said he would pass a bill making it easier to strip British Jews of their citizenship without the need to inform them, there would quite rightly be an uproar.

The Conservatives have actually done this.

You keep saying I should care more about society and I'm telling you I do care but I'm not a doormat. Labour treat women like doormats.

So I won't vote for them, you haven't convinced me at all I'm afraid.

I must have given the wrong impression. I won't be voting Labour either and am certainly not trying to convince anyone else to.

Thank you for replying 15.

I think your response exemplifies a massive, fundamental issue with labour at the moment.
It's happening all over the place at the moment but labour it's extreme and divisive. And it has extremely negative consequences for them.

In short.
When there are questions, concerns, doubts, criticisms, unhappiness, disagreement, anger about anything. Policies, in fighting, lack of action where should be, lots of action over things where big differences of opinion. Etc etc.

Script is.
Don't listen.
Don't even say can see point but disagree.
Don't placate even if a lot of discontent.
Don't answer questions directly but answer something that hasn't been asked, or disagree with a point that was not made.
Follow the party line no matter what to press etc. Even while everyone knows of massive international rows, divisions etc.

On this thread, and I'm assuming you are as you say. Party faithful, you say you left but your posts indicate that the message you want to get across is vote labour.
If that's wrong I'm not sure what you're posts have been conveying but obv if I'm missing something do say.

So I posted as I said I would, some of the things that some/ plenty of labour supporters thought were dreadful.

And knocked confidence in the party. And I have only covered a part of the things that plenty thought were appalling in recent years.

To retain those voters. Listening, explaining why, maybe saying see point but overall decided to do X because y.
Apologising in a timely and genuine way if that bad/ reassure.

Saying we are with you, we need you, stay and fight.

That sort of thing.

Nope no way. So people.. lose confidence. Get to end of tether and walk.

They seem cavalier about totally pissing off groups of supporters wholesale.

That's just s really concerning way to behave esp for a party of the left!

Cheese -

Your momentum rant is so completely counterfactual that only someone with no idea whatsoever of what actually happened could spew it forth. Moving on . . .

You mention that political parties aren't necessarily about getting in power.

No, I didn't say that. Political parties are by definition about getting power. What I said was that they are not ONLY about getting power. There's clearly a REASON why somebody wants to get a political party into power, and that reason will be different for Tories, Labourites, Greens etc. - not to mention for various subsections and even individuals within those parties.

So pretending, as some do, that you can easily and lazily resolve conflicts between the drive toward power and the set of principles upon which a party is based by pretending that the former is everything and the latter worth nothing (and writing off anyone claiming otherwise as "unelectable" "hopeless idealist" etc.) is incoherent and meaningless. It's not that I think it's bad, or immoral or whatever. It's that it doesn't actually make any sense.

I think within labour that's the position. Battling over internal power. Electability? Winning votes, winning seats? Winning election? No sign that is even on the radar.

I agree with this, but you're massively mistaken in your apprehension of which forces within Labour are responsible for it.

On this thread, and I'm assuming you are as you say. Party faithful, you say you left but your posts indicate that the message you want to get across is vote labour.
If that's wrong I'm not sure what you're posts have been conveying but obv if I'm missing something do say.

I believe the Labour party as it currently stands is not worth voting for.

I believe that a lot of the common narrative about the Labour party historically is incoherent, illogical, self contradictory and poorly informed.

I believe that the perception of identity politics and general economically left wing politics as some kind of mutually exclusive zero sum game makes no sense and is contrary to observable reality, In reality, it's largely people with strong ideas about rights of race, sexuality etc. who work hard within the left to ALSO promote policies of economic justice. In reality, the right stokes a culture war against woke to win over the hearts of the working class while screwing them over with austerity, poor public services and lack of investment.

I believe that whatever you think about Tory policies or capitalist economics, voting Tory at this very specific juncture in history is a disastrous idea because of their unprecedented and determined attack on democracy itself.

I acknowledge the distress and anger a lot of people feel about the attack on women's sex based rights. I also believe those rights should be protected and I understand feeling unable to vote for a party that won't do so.

Basically I think the UK is f * * * ed.

So...

'We clearly have very different perceptions of the antisemitism issue, and we’re not going to resolve that here'.

I think you should at least briefly say what your perception is. Because I have stated mine. And I have no idea where you disagree with my 'perception'. And I'm sure you want to be absolutely clear on what you think.

1. I raised it as an example of things that really angered plenty of labour faithful. Which it did.

I never suggested anyone discuss the actual issue. Let alone try to resolve it! It lost labour supporters. That's not good for the party. Essentially you just used that as an out.

The word perception. My perception. How I interpreted, felt about it. Situation open to interpretation, not clear. What happened is just my perception of events.
It's a very subtle implication of... Strong bias. Not enough facts for anyone to really know.

'“Jewish community” is not a monolithic block any more than women, the black community etc. '

I took deliberate care to ensure I did not describe Jewish community as a monolith.

The term community is used frequently by Jewish papers etc.

However not so that I've noticed for black population. It's black people in London. That sort of thing.

I'm not sure why you brought women or black people into it anyway.

Are the general political views/ voting patterns something you have looked into?

Overall on a significant sensitive issue that was huge in the media and loads of anger, press coverage.

Your response is even worse than totally inadequate.

And this type of standard response from labour is extremely alienating to supporters.

@TooBigForMyBoots

If JC said he would pass a bill making it easier to strip British Jews of their citizenship without the need to inform them, there would quite rightly be an uproar.

The Conservatives have actually done this.

Yes. It's terrifying.

Didn't want to leave your post hanging in middle of the argy bargy!

These changes have been vv high priority for ages for fucking protests this is at least second attempt.

The vision of society that they are pushing hard for is terrifying.

Eg
Combine the proposed clamp down on possession for personal use, prosecution, with the proposed no reason stop and search.

Bearing in mind that stop and search is extremely contentious and known to massively target certain groups.

Add in deportation law for refugees who get a criminal conviction, and that Patel changed when happens from 12 to 6 months in prison, last year maybe.

Get new laws in place.
A few tweaks here and there.
What have you got?

Ability to target certain groups, trawl people for coke or... Cannabis! Arrest. Deport.

Paranoid?
I would like to think so.

Even if not full endgame. Targeting will 100% happen no question.

15

Thank you for recent post which I think clarifies your position, for me anyway.

'I believe that the perception of identity politics and general economically left wing politics as some kind of mutually exclusive zero sum game makes no sense and is contrary to observable reality, In reality, it's largely people with strong ideas about rights of race, sexuality etc. who work hard within the left to ALSO promote policies of economic justice. In reality, the right stokes a culture war against woke to win over the hearts of the working class while screwing them over with austerity, poor public services and lack of investment.'

Cheese - I'm aware of your original objection to straying too far from sex/gender. But if you insist:

anti Semitism. Huge awful problem.

I have seen no evidence that antisemitism is/was any more prevalent or severe among the Labour membership than it is among the population as a whole or the membership of any other party - including the one led by the man who refers to black people as "piccaninies with watermelon smiles" and muslim women as "letterboxes" but has never been accused by the media of any kind of racism whatsoever.

If you'd like to show me the evidence that it was a "huge awful problem" then I can tell you my reaction to that evidence.

Some things said by Corbyn totally unpalatable.

Like what? I can't remember ever hearing him say anything I considered antisemitic. If you give me a quote with context, then I'm happy to oblige.

Specific episodes of anti Semitic behaviour brushed aside. Failure not only to address properly but even to recognise it as a real problem.

Antisemitism cases were dealt with under the same disciplinary system as other problems within the Labour membership, which is a woefully dysfunctional system that takes forever to do anything, contradicts the most basic principles of due process and natural justice, and is constantly subject to factional infighting and corruption. So yes, there was a failure to deal with antisemitism cases properly, but that's not because Labour is particularly antisemitic or tolerant of antisemitism. It's because Labour is crap at dealing with anything properly.

This was a widely misunderstood aspect of the EHRC report. It mentioned that there was a failure to adequately separate the disciplinary process from the leader's office, which led many to conclude that the leader's office was attempting to stop antisemitism from being properly investigated. In reality it was the opposite: the leader's office was trying to overcome the institutional torpor of the bureaucracy to get cases prosecuted more quickly. Indeed the report also noted that the process actually improved (though not by enough) after 2018 when a Corbyn-supporting general secretary took office and some of the tension between those elements was resolved.

Jewish community (massive majority) long term guaranteed labour votes. Like, generations. Treated like dirt, essentially. Insulting, upsetting, enraging, betrayal. And on THE ongoing, historical beliefs about Jews and how they have been treated. From verbal abuse to murdered millions.

Again I'm not aware of any cases of the Labour party treating jewish people like dirt, insulting them etc. or of Labour members doing so and not being expelled. You'd have to show me examples of what you believe happened, for me to be able to respond.

Bloody hell. Really?

How come then that there was such massive upset, outrage, anger in the Jewish community then?

Why do you think that happened?

Plus the issues I posted, the reason was that imo the focus on policies around the question as to why labour are failing so badly, was the wrong focus.

That the state of the party, for reasons previously posted, is where to look.

One example of something that reduced confidence, support etc, my first example was the long running anti Semitic situation.

Diverting into discussing that issue or the others was not the point.

It was to highlight some big issues that for some labour faithful/ supporters were terrible. Made them lose confidence. Reduced opinion of the party as a whole.

These things and I only mentioned a few. Led to losing support, or contributed towards whatever was the final straw.

Saying they were and are wrong is to miss the point. Each one meant or contributed to people ditching them.

Which is obviously not good for the party.

I mean for crying out loud-

'I can't remember ever hearing him say anything I considered antisemitic. If you give me a quote with context, then I'm happy to oblige.'

You considered anti Semitic.
You are the arbiter?
You can't see that is just not a reasonable response?

The fact is that lots of Jewish people DID. Not all, in case I need to reiterate that.

You feel I should go and Google and find and copy and paste so YOU can judge if others being pissed off was reasonable?

That's really not how it works. Or not how it should work. You decreeing whether a bunch of other people have a valid reason to be fucked off.

The point is that ARE fucked off. And their fucked off-ness is causing bad press, damage to reputation, reduces confidence. And when it's about such a sensitive issue. You do something. Other than focusing on whether that bunch of people deserve to feel fucked off or not. And bickering about that.

I feel that you can't see where I'm coming from at all around this whole general topic of things that caused damage.

@CheeseMmmm

Bloody hell. Really?

How come then that there was such massive upset, outrage, anger in the Jewish community then?

Why do you think that happened?

I return to my earlier point - which you seemed to acknowledge at the time - that "the Jewish community" is not a single monolith. The Jewish Labour Movement launched a determined attack upon Corbyn's leadership and made many accusations of antisemitism, yes. Most of those were based on unproven allegations, assumption and suggestion. They were aided in this by the Jewish Chronicle who, like all media outlets, have their own complex set of political and financial priorities to follow.

There are plenty of other Jewish Labour members who disagree vehemently with the dominant narrative about antisemitism, and there are organisations that represent those members but have been either ignored or actively fought against by the party. Many of those members have been suspended or expelled - in some cases because they were CLP chairs or secretaries who allowed their branches to discuss issues of antisemitism (such as the statement that got the whip removed from Jeremy Corbyn) against the diktat of the party bureaucracy. This is what I meant by "the wrong kind of jew": the party is heavily invested in promoting the narrative that "the jewish community" as whole is fully behind their attack on the left. The reality is more complex.

For example, all the candidates for the 2020 leadership contest were pressured to sign up to a set of demands by the British Board of Jewish Deputies, setting out how to move the party on from the antisemitism issue. One of those demands was that the Jewish Labour Movement be recognised as the sole representative of the jewish community within the party, have a monopoly over all antisemitism training, etc.

Jeremy Corbyn was a committed anti-racist with a lifelong commitment to campaigning for disadvantaged and oppressed peoples. He believed passionately that the situation in Palestine was wrong and that we should be working to stand up for Palestinians' human rights. It doesn't take a rabid conspiracy theorist to work out that the Israeli state, and certain powerful lobby groups and interests connected to them, are not going to like that very much.

Or that the British establishment and right wing media, who were also crapping themselves over the prospect of an actual left wing political movement in Britain with power, saw an opportunity to use the situation as part of their brutal and ruthless character assasination of Corbyn. Again, almost entirely on the basis of suggestion and assumption. That's all they needed.

But hey, they got rid of all the momentum loonies, right? So now Labour can go back to being respectable, waving flags and opposing corporation tax rises. And everyone here can complain about how it doesn't have any proper left wing policies. Hoorah.

While, as @TooBigForMyBoots points out, the Tories bring in laws that actually discriminate against the citizenship status of ethnic minorities, including jews, and armies of angry bigots try to stop the Lifeboat Association from saving refugees' lives when they drown in the English channel.

I mean for crying out loud-

'I can't remember ever hearing him say anything I considered antisemitic. If you give me a quote with context, then I'm happy to oblige.'

You considered anti Semitic.
You are the arbiter?
You can't see that is just not a reasonable response?

The fact is that lots of Jewish people DID. Not all, in case I need to reiterate that.

You feel I should go and Google and find and copy and paste so YOU can judge if others being pissed off was reasonable?

I feel that if he really had said such terrible things, it would have been quicker for you to copy and paste them from Google than it was to type that response.

I didn't actually ask to be the arbiter, I only asked you to clarify for me what it was he said that is so problematic. You talk about what's reasonable, but making statements without evidence, refusing to supply evidence when challenged and then attacking others' insistance on evidence instead, is the epitome of unreasonable.

@TooBigForMyBoots

www.gov.uk/government/publications/nationality-and-borders-bill-deprivation-of-citizenship-factsheet/nationality-and-borders-bill-deprivation-of-citizenship-factsheet

This bill, just published by the current Tory government is terrifying for all citizens but it disproportionately impacts British Jews, other British minorities and the entire population of Northern Ireland.

It's a really quick and disturbing read.

This is aimed at dual nationals who went off to fight for Isis in Syria, why do you think it it aimed at Jews?

Probably Green.

The thing about too much compromise/not enough purity is an interesting conundrum.

My own view is that they've kind of screwed up in both directions at the same time.

They talk about offering more supports for those in need, and more high level state programs. Some of the ideas are good, but they don't really touch the real issue for most which is people having good jobs in their own strong viable communities.

I don't think anyone can talk about Labour being about the interests of workers and their communities when they consistently say things like people with concerns about movement of labour are racists, or people who don't like global trading blocks and their political mechanisms are xenophobic.

Identity politics too seems o be the only option with them. It's not even that they will allow it among other things, they allow nothing else. It isn't just on gender, this is the party who ditched Trevor Phillips. And it is a vote loser, not popular with people especially the working classes, so yes, clearly they are willing to put it before the policies they believe will help people.

@TooBigForMyBoots

If JC said he would pass a bill making it easier to strip British Jews of their citizenship without the need to inform them, there would quite rightly be an uproar.

The Conservatives have actually done this.

Well that's not quite what it says. It says if an individual is committing war crimes, spying for another country, or inflicting terrorism on the country, and they also have citizenship elsewhere, they may lose their British citizenship. There is a right of appeal.

Given Jews have the possibility of citizenship in Israel, potentially it could apply to more than the average population. Though presumably only if they are doing things like spying for said state.

I would be concerned about the potential abuses of this and the details of how it would work to prevent that, but it precludes people being made stateless which is what I'd have been most concerned about.

This is aimed at dual nationals who went off to fight for Isis in Syria, why do you think it it aimed at Jews?

It applies to British Jews. Black and brown British citizens, British Asians, British people of Irish or any other foreign descent. It also applies to everyone in Northern Ireland. British citizens born to British parents.