And this is what we're up against!!

[WhatyoutalkingaboutWillis]

www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=gmaDcbGKwt4&fbclid=IwAR2HBzI5J5kvYW3mogIVEE9wqdlLFpLneZ3Mhr7ybqlBGm8c6296WiH7e9M

How has this still got legs?

I have only ever been on "the Left" and I voted Remain so it pains me to say this.

Everyone being sniffy about sources that are "conservative" or "UKIP" should take a trip in a time machine back to the debate on the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

Who was obfuscating, making false promises, deliberately muddling up "sex" and "gender", etc.?

Clue: the Bill was introduced by a Labour Government.

Who was consistently nit-picking and raising precise and detailed concerns about, for example:

• detransitioners
• the impact on women's sports
• protection for "trans widows"
• conflation of "sex" and "gender"
• the prospect of "female rapists" being imprisoned with women?

Tories: with top prizes to Norman Tebbit, Anne Widdecombe and Colin Moynihan.

Examples:

Tweets from 2003: The Gender Recognition Bill

I'm going to tweet out a few of the illuminating comments from the debates that led to the GRA 2004, to save you all ploughing through Hansard.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20191223045254/twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1049289194370002945" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20191223045254/twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1049289194370002945

==========

Time for another thread of quotes from the GRA debates of 2003/04, I think.

This one about how critical it is to define SEX and GENDER in law and never to conflate the two.

And how the Government repeatedly refused to allow that distinction, despite being asked to.

#GRA2004

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20211001090920/twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1052160108489334785" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20211001090920/twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1052160108489334785

=============

Thread#3 of the GRA debates of 2003/04.

This time, SPORT.

Funnily enough, although the govt argued that all females were to be rendered legally indistinguishable from MalesWithFemalePersonalities 'for all purposes', they DID decide that sports was a bridge too far.

#GRA2004

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210506172751/twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1052199906105016321" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210506172751/twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1052199906105016321

============

ICYMI.

The government KNEW in 2004 that they were creating the legal fiction of 'female rapists' with the GRA. It's a matter of public record that they confirmed.

But within 5 years this legal lie had been extended from GRC holders, to ANY man who self-identified as a 'woman'.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20211205163740/twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1106129076752912384" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20211205163740/twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1106129076752912384

==============

Detransition:

"Baroness O'Cathain moved Amendment No. 42:

§After Clause 6, insert the following new clause—

§"REVERSAL OF APPLICATION PROCESS"

hansard.millbanksystems.com/grand_committee_report/2004/jan/13/official-report-of-the-grand-committee#S5LV0657P0_20040113_GCR_220

If I had been aware of the passage of the GRA2004 through Parliament and had known that the likes of Tebbit and Widdecombe were against it, my knee-jerk reaction to be in favour would have been strong enough to smash my jaw! That's how stupidly I was wedded to tribal Party Politics.

All these years later, a journalist's association with a party that advocated leaving the EU is cited as a reason to, what? Question their motives or reliability in demonstrating student views on "Sex vs Gender"?

The EU Referendum was over five years ago.

2016. The same year that trans activism in the UK seriously ramped up.

This issue is at least as divisive as Brexit but the fracture lines are different, so ex-Remainers will find themselves allied with ex-Brexiteers, whether they like it or not.

I wish someone would make a documentary or write some articles about all the left-wing women who can't stand this harmful 'gender identity' ideology, and let them explain why, e.g. in terms of class.

Spot on @Bosky

I wish someone would make a documentary or write some articles about all the left-wing women who can't stand this harmful 'gender identity' ideology, and let them explain why, e.g. in terms of class

Sounds like a good notion Spindles, it makes me really angry the suggestion that only right wing people would object to this stuff. Spoiled the interviews for me too and I agree with other posters who say the interviewer did not seem particularly well informed. I thought the students would likely be self selecting, wanting to boost their trans sympathy credentials with their peers, but maybe I`m being unfair.

Reported as hate speech a nasty little bunch of misogynistic comments about one of the interviewees. Will be interesting to see if that comes down.

An interesting video in some respects, but obviously made from a certain conservative viewpoint which seems to attract to people who don’t like women very much. I can’t help but wonder how the students being interviewed would have interacted with a known GC feminist; they come across as very genial and patient with this guy, but were any of them personally involved with what happened to Kathleen Stock?

*Reported YouTube comments in case that was unclear.

I got to the bit where one of the girls worried that gender identity might be seen “as a trend” right after agreeing that choosing your gender identity is no more consequential than having a drink in the pub, then I had to stop watching. It’s too embarrassing.

choosing your gender identity is no more consequential than having a drink in the pub

Should say

choosing your gender identity is no more consequential than choosing a drink in the pub.

He might as well fly out to Afghanistan and ask people on the street what they think of the Taliban

interesting analogy. The Taliban know what sex is and prevent the female sex taking part in society and murder same-sex attracted lesbian, gay, bisexual people. In the West, exclusion from society is financially and psychologically dangerous.

Both the Taliban and Gender ideology have the thought police, misogyny and ways to identify heretics.

I think that was frightening and sad. Some of the students were clearly fully on board with trans ideology, a few were repeating what they thought they should say and hadn't really given it much attention and I think the young woman with the purple hair, face mask and biker jacket didn't believe a word of it, it was sad watching her try to find words which made sense without putting a target on her back.

I'm undecided about the interviewer. I've seen the style before where the interviewer pretends to be as poorly informed as the people being interviewed. It's usually done to make the interviewee think the interviewer is ignorant and they are helpfully educating them or because the interviewer knows it will provide better material for their audience to mock. It's essentially a non combative approach to a contentious issue.

I don't think the students were self selecting, I think they were selected in the editing process by the content creator; as worrying as this is perhaps we should take heart that these may represent the "worst" of the trans brainwashed at SU.

I think it's very easy for the interviewer to assert that it's only liberal or right leaning people who oppose this ideology, the left is giving them plenty of evidence. The most vocal and aggressive TRA's are left wing men and liberal feminists and they are backed by our largest left leaning political party (UK) what other conclusion should he reach. Many on the right think that feminists are universally in agreement on this issue and use it as evidence we are part of the problem. Expressing contempt for his views doesn't help at all. The Conservative may have allowed this nonsense to gain ground but the left are actively supporting it even now the Tories have backed off.

FOJN - Depends what you mean by "the left". Many of us who have been involved in socialist struggles for years, dont fit the criteria of what you might call the "new left". But who is this? Kier Starmer and other figures in the Labour Party. Young people with dyed hair in Extinction Rebellion? A load of students who havnt defined their politcs at all but just want to fit in? Im not sure I would class a lot of these vocal TRAs as being "on the left". I guess we are struggling with definitions here but yes, youre right that many on the conservative side will oppose gender ideology and we`re often told that we must be in bed with far right proponents if we agree. I find this quite difficult and have observed that others on this board do too.

I don't blame him. The left has a long history of supporting all kinds of dodgy ideas. Eugenics (the Fabians et al), pedophilia (Foucault and Derrida and the entire post-modern shit-show) and now this.

The right has a long history of supporting woo woo also.

Many people were, quite rightly furious about Tom Watson's manipulation of the police to pursue a witch hunt about SRA / VIP paedophile rings all on the basis of the lies of Carl Beech.

Nobody really made a fuss about Zac Goldmith's activities regarding the promotion of the same conspiracy theories and one has to wonder why this is.

Iain Duncan Smith's Centre for Social Justice has published many reports authored by some of the most significant promoters of the Satanic panic and yet nobody reports about it.

Don't get me started on David Cameron's promtion of the odious Camila Batmanghelidjh or the Rees Mogg family's promotion of the Steiner cult.

It is true the the left has promoted dubious and dangerous quackery and bizarre conspiracy theories but so have the right.

Quackery and disinformation are harmful to our society whoever is promoting it.

@SpindlesWinterWhorl

I wish someone would make a documentary or write some articles about all the left-wing women who can't stand this harmful 'gender identity' ideology, and let them explain why, e.g. in terms of class.

So you don't subscribe to the Morning Star, for example?

Or you do but you have not bothered to read all the articles by and/or about some of "the left-wing women who can't stand this harmful 'gender identity' ideology and have explained why, e.g. in terms of class".

Or you do and you have read them but you do not accept that class analysis can accommodate the feminist position that women, females need to be considered as a class?

You get 8 free articles to read a month, although I am sure you know that already

‘Those involved in progressive politics need to commit to ensuring women’s voices are heard’
HELEN STEEL talks to Jo Bartosch about the violence and threats she’s received from supposed leftwingers for attempting to discuss the issues of sex and gender
morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/womens-voices-are-heard

A light has been shone on women’s rights for all the world to see
A shocking tribunal decision against Maya Forstater, who lost her job for believing sex is immutable, has elevated the ‘gender debate’ to a new level of international scrutiny, writes RUTH SERWOTKA
morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/light-has-been-shone-one-womens-rights-all-world-see
(The Tribunal decision was subsequently overturned, as I am sure you are aware, SpindlesWinterWhorl)

Labour activists launch declaration on women’s sex-based rights
We need to defend women’s legal sex-based rights clearly as we go into this crucial election, argue the LABOUR WOMEN'S DECLARATION GROUP
morningstaronline.co.uk/article/labour-activists-launch-declaration-women%E2%80%99s-sex-based-rights

Hundreds of women gather in London to discuss sex and gender
Earlier this week feminist campaign group Woman’s Place UK held its biggest meeting yet. ROS SITWELL reports
morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/hundreds-women-gather-london-discuss-sex-and-gender

Asking what the future holds for women
Former Labour MSP MARLYN GLEN reports on a useful meeting at Edinburgh University that has been misrepresented in the media
morningstaronline.co.uk/article/asking-what-future-holds-women

Woman ‘attacked in racist incident at May Day march’
morningstaronline.co.uk/article/h-250-racist-incident-may-day-march

Female trade union official ‘bullied off own union’s picket line on International Women’s Day’
morningstaronline.co.uk/article/female-trade-union-official-bullied-own-picket-line-international-womens-day

An assault on free speech and free thought
morningstaronline.co.uk/article/assault-free-speech-and-free-thought

Communists call for protection for women's spaces
morningstaronline.co.uk/article/communists-call-protection-womens-spaces#.XFv24-FECtg.twitter

@Awkwardy

I feel there should be a 70s sitcom laugh track added to this ...

That would make it so much better.

@WhatyoutalkingaboutWillis

They all just seemed so scared to GET IT WRONG and pretty clueless as to what they SHOULD be thinking.

Yes

I do hope that these poor deluded children revisit the interviews in a few years time and have the grace to cringe at their immaturity and naivety. I am trying to be kind, they are very young, have an air of privilege and I am assuming have never had to deal with the real life problems that many women have to like being in prison or hospital, or a DV hostel sharing a personal space with a man claiming to be a woman. Nor have they lost out in a sport they love to a male competitor, or been injured by a violent tackle.

The girl in the first interview had a sticker saying “I voted”. I hope it was only a vote about what flavour yogurts they serve in the cafeteria.

The two I felt were most deluded, were the two girls who said they played rugby. Obviously, they have never played against a determined male player, wow are they going to be surprised and not in a good way!

A male rugby player would collapse Ms Parka On The Right like a deckchair.

A slight nudge would be all it would take.🌬️

Fucking idiots

@allmywhat

I got to the bit where one of the girls worried that gender identity might be seen “as a trend” right after agreeing that choosing your gender identity is no more consequential than having a drink in the pub, then I had to stop watching. It’s too embarrassing.

Why are you calling them girls?

They must be at least 18. They are not children.

@viques

I do hope that these poor deluded children revisit the interviews in a few years time and have the grace to cringe at their immaturity and naivety. I am trying to be kind, they are very young, have an air of privilege and I am assuming have never had to deal with the real life problems that many women have to like being in prison or hospital, or a DV hostel sharing a personal space with a man claiming to be a woman. Nor have they lost out in a sport they love to a male competitor, or been injured by a violent tackle.

The girl in the first interview had a sticker saying “I voted”. I hope it was only a vote about what flavour yogurts they serve in the cafeteria.

They are not children or girls.

Why are so many posters determined to infantilise these women?

I'm from Canada and a bit deaf but ...

Is it normal for UK university students to speak like this? I don't mean their words, but the manner of speaking: no projection of the voice, lack of enunciation, loads of waffly words, speaking through gritted teeth. Is this an accent? a fashion? Is it purely the subject matter? Would they speak like this in class on non - controversial subjects?

Is it normal for UK university students to speak like this? I don't mean their words, but the manner of speaking: no projection of the voice, lack of enunciation, loads of waffly words, speaking through gritted teeth. Is this an accent? a fashion? Is it purely the subject matter? Would they speak like this in class on non - controversial subjects?

I think it's probably a desperate attempt not to say the wrong thing.

@toomanytrees

I'm from Canada and a bit deaf but ...

Is it normal for UK university students to speak like this? I don't mean their words, but the manner of speaking: no projection of the voice, lack of enunciation, loads of waffly words, speaking through gritted teeth. Is this an accent? a fashion? Is it purely the subject matter? Would they speak like this in class on non - controversial subjects?

I’m a British uni student. I should imagine they are just fucking terrified of saying something wrong. If someone was interviewing me on this I’d have run a mile (but I am firmly GC and a massive coward)