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Julie Burchill: "Why I loathe the woke"
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beastlyslumber · 29/11/2021 19:14

Just thought I'd share this piece of joy for anyone else who is fond of Ms Burchill...

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HazelCarbyFan · 29/11/2021 19:48

Woke is a term created by Black people to describe the awakening of racial consciousness. The way “woke” is used as a sneer at political activism is quite dismissive of the realities of state violence and oppression against Black people and the need for Black people to organize against it.

Do you really need to appropriate the language Black people developed to speak about our political realities to dismiss and smear people? Why do you think it is this term in particular has been taken on to mean “extreme, unreasonable activism”? Can you give an explanation other than a broad attempt to diminish Black people’s fight against police violence and systemic racism?

Please stop using this term in this way.

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BlameItOnTheBlackStar · 29/11/2021 19:52

OP apparently you need to now become the defender of the term woke, despite not actually using it yourself.

Confused

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Classica · 29/11/2021 19:52

I agree with @HazelCarbyFan.

Using 'woke' as a dismissive umbrella term for multiple issues just means people have an excuse not to engage with any of them. Oh I don't like x, y and z 'cos they're woke.

It's the new 'p.c gone mad'.

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TooBigForMyBoots · 29/11/2021 19:56

It's the new 'p.c gone mad'.

Yep.

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Clymene · 29/11/2021 20:02

Or you could just engage with the content

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Whataday198 · 29/11/2021 20:05

"I loathe the Woke" does have a very distinctive Richard Littlejohn air to it.

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Justme56 · 29/11/2021 20:05

Thanks OP I look forward to listening.

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TheAntiGardener · 29/11/2021 20:06

I agree with Hazel and Classica. The label is divisive because its original, still valid, meaning has been hijacked. It is also used equally by those who are specifically critiquing the new cancel culture Puritanism and those who dismiss any kind of recognition of power imbalance in society because it suits them. It’s tempting to use it because it’s a highly recognisable shorthand, but these factors mean it’s off limits for me.

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HazelCarbyFan · 29/11/2021 20:06

There’s been nearly a dozen threads where people agree that just seeing pronouns in signatures is upsetting to them. And who am I to argue with them if that’s how they feel? I stay out of those threads. So do me the respect that seeing the term “woke” used disparagingly all over this board constantly is also upsetting and is a political dog whistle based in racism. It should never bring joy when people use racially charged terms. It’s been constant on this board and it is a slur against Black people.

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NecessaryScene · 29/11/2021 20:09

Please stop using this term in this way.

you don't get to insist that no one talks about your political project and it's weak and pathetic that you think you do

freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/please-just-fucking-tell-me-what

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lightand · 29/11/2021 20:11

I agree with Hazel and Classica. The label is divisive because its original, still valid, meaning has been hijacked

Once a term has moved on from it's original, it cant be brought back, can it.
Language evolves.
You only have to look at old maps, or speak to a linguist.

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lightand · 29/11/2021 20:12

Or read an old dictionary.
Or remember what some words meant from your childhood.

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JayAlfredPrufrock · 29/11/2021 20:15

‘Woke’ is owned by black people?

You is avin a laugh.

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ChimamandaFangirl · 29/11/2021 20:16

The term woke came out of black discourse, and yeah, it was appropriated by white liberals who keep doing shit like this to try and gain social status over other white people.

The fact that it's now made the journey all the way to something used to mock the privileged trying to bully others into compliance is a damn shame, but that toothpaste isn't going back in the tube now.

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Clymene · 29/11/2021 20:17

@HazelCarbyFan

There’s been nearly a dozen threads where people agree that just seeing pronouns in signatures is upsetting to them. And who am I to argue with them if that’s how they feel? I stay out of those threads. So do me the respect that seeing the term “woke” used disparagingly all over this board constantly is also upsetting and is a political dog whistle based in racism. It should never bring joy when people use racially charged terms. It’s been constant on this board and it is a slur against Black people.

No, it isn't. In11 years, the term has moved on. Like many American words, it has a totally different meaning in the U.K.
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EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/11/2021 20:18

I'm not at all fond of Julie Burchill and, to be fair, I'm confident that she would loathe me if she were ever to meet me. JB is a gifted polemicist and it doesn't follow from that that I would agree with her on all matters. Owen Jones is similarly gifted and I find some of his views abhorrent on particular topics.

I'm at a loss as to how the OP could have alerted people to the title of JB's video if she were to amend the title.

I'd also, yet again, argue that accept a US graft of political terms into the UK context is not necessarily successful.

www.theweek.co.uk/woke

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allmywhat · 29/11/2021 20:19

Do you really need to appropriate the language Black people developed to speak about our political realities to dismiss and smear people?

It was appropriated by the type of people that are labelled "woke" in a sneering manner - overwhelmingly white, middle-class and conforming to a particular aesthetic of nonconformism, with a constellation of various unintelligent left-identifying ideas. I appreciate that the term originated with Black people, and it wasn't people opposed to "wokeness" who appropriated it.

Unfortunately I don't think you are going to be able to change this, even if everyone on this website stopped using it. "Woke" is in common use now to refer to the abovementioned people, and there's no other widely used name for them.

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JayAlfredPrufrock · 29/11/2021 20:21

And when I think how Americans have mangled the English language

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Whataday198 · 29/11/2021 20:22

How many of these people saying "but language evolves" the same people who argue that queer is a slur and "they/them" make no sense as singular pronouns?

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Gncq · 29/11/2021 20:23

To insist others stop using a term for a movement that we can all see very clearly in front of our own eyes that is referred to as "woke", is ironically and unbearably woke.

As PP said, how about engage in the harm this movement is causing rather than forcing language control which is what the woke movement is known for.

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HazelCarbyFan · 29/11/2021 20:23

There isn’t a separate UK evolution of the term “woke” - you can’t pretend it becomes void of its Black roots once it crosses the ocean.

People on this board regularly bemoan the term “Karen” but then become apoplectic when you address the meaning behind other terms. Why is it ok for women on this board to protest the misogynist proliferation of the word “Karen” to now apply to any woman doing anything that no longer applies to specific racial dynamics, but not ok to make the same argument about this term?

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JayAlfredPrufrock · 29/11/2021 20:26

Think you are conflating two different issues there.

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beastlyslumber · 29/11/2021 20:27

I just love Julie Burchill and wanted to share this joyous, funny interview with other people who love her too, or perhaps with those who have yet to be introduced to her. If you're not interested, then it's not for you.

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allmywhat · 29/11/2021 20:28

not ok to make the same argument about this term?

Who says it's not ok for you to make the argument? But you are going to have to allow for people finding the argument unpersuasive.

Personally I'd be happy to stop using it if there was a similar term that conveyed the same meaning. But what good will that do you, if I do? Millions of other people will still be using it.

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EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/11/2021 20:28

People on this board regularly bemoan the term “Karen” but then become apoplectic when you address the meaning behind other terms. Why is it ok for women on this board to protest the misogynist proliferation of the word “Karen” to now apply to any woman doing anything that no longer applies to specific racial dynamics, but not ok to make the same argument about this term?

I await you posting your analysis to justify that assertion with great interest as I have a technical interest in natural language processing and textual analysis.

I've been posting here for a very long time and would hesitate to claim to have sufficient insight to make such generalisations about the posters here and the length of their involvement or the topics that exercise them.

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