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Julie Burchill: "Why I loathe the woke"
290

beastlyslumber · 29/11/2021 19:14

Just thought I'd share this piece of joy for anyone else who is fond of Ms Burchill...

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Libertaire · 29/11/2021 22:28

@Gncq

We do need a word to describe the current political movement originating from North America, so popular amongst middle class university students, that is completely against free speech and is pro language control, that we now describe as "woke".
We need a word for it.
Any suggestions?

Stalinism?
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Clymene · 29/11/2021 22:33

I absolutely believe women can talk to one another, no matter what our skin colour or culture. We share many many common experiences.

We're much stronger working together

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BlackandGreen · 29/11/2021 22:36

So black women posting on here, expressing a view to other women, are now Stalinists?
That's quite sad to read. I'll leave you to it then.

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Shedmistress · 29/11/2021 22:39

@BlackandGreen

So black women posting on here, expressing a view to other women, are now Stalinists?
That's quite sad to read. I'll leave you to it then.

FFS.
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Momobeats · 29/11/2021 22:41

@BlackandGreen

I have varying degrees of fondness for Curtis Mayfield, Jerk chicken and marijuana that somehow makes me black.

Just what the fuck is that supposed to mean?

Not my words, it was a disgusting comment by @dropthevipers in this thread on friday

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4412050-Are-you-watching-Womanhood?pg=2
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BlackandGreen · 29/11/2021 22:43

Why the FFS.?
That's what I read? See the post that says " Stalinists"
If I've misread/misunderstood then explain? But don't "FFS."

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BlackandGreen · 29/11/2021 22:45

Thank you Momobeats, I see now, thanks for taking the time to come and explain.

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JayAlfredPrufrock · 29/11/2021 22:46

@GeorgiaGirl52

Much as I really really really hate to say this, here in Oldham it’s black pudding.

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Momobeats · 29/11/2021 22:47

@BlackandGreen

Thank you Momobeats, I see now, thanks for taking the time to come and explain.

No problem @BlackandGreen
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JayAlfredPrufrock · 29/11/2021 22:47

Sorry that was to @beastlyslumber

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Shedmistress · 29/11/2021 22:59

If I've misread/misunderstood then explain? But don't "FFS."

I can asure you the wokism referred to in the Stalinism comment is as far as it can be from black women commenting on here.

Do you not understand that we are talking about white middle class university educated people who have completely taken over the term 'woke' pretending they are oh so virtuous whilst calling for women to be ousted from their jobs, raped or in some cases, murdered; just for knowing about the biology of sex? That is the whole fucking point of Julie Birchill saying she loathes these little jumped up shit stains banging on relentlessly about identity politics being the most important dimension in modern life?

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MurielSpriggs · 29/11/2021 23:00

Whatever it's origins, the way "woke" is currently used is the Daily-Express-reactionary equivalent to "political correctness gone mad", and, for those of us old enough to remember it, "the loony left".

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OrangeJuiceAndNoodles · 29/11/2021 23:10

Even the word itself is irritating as hell. Shouldn't it be 'awake'?

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XiXimXerJinping · 29/11/2021 23:15

Oh look! A purity spiral in the comments.

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beastlyslumber · 29/11/2021 23:18

@JayAlfredPrufrock

Sorry that was to *@beastlyslumber*

We say black pudding where I'm from, too, but wasn't sure if the pp would get the reference
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allmywhat · 29/11/2021 23:35

Oh look! A purity spiral in the comments

I don’t think that’s fair at all, the comments are an actual discussion not a purity spiral.

Earlier I described “wokeness” as a constellation of unintelligent left-identifying ideas but I think I was being unfair. Not all the ideas are intrinsically terrible. It’s having a certain set of ideas and applying them in a rigid, inflexible, and above all authoritarian way. And using identity politics one-upmanship to bring down your rivals and jostle for social status, often by playing the victim. When that happens in an online forum you get purity spirals.

I don’t see that happening here; I think people are genuinely trying to listen to each other.

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PlasticPlantsDontDie · 29/11/2021 23:56

@HazelCarbyFan you are 100% right. I hate that it has been hijacked in this way. We object to the usage of Karen beyond its original meaning so it’s logically inconsistent to not feel the same about Woke.

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NoNotMeNoSiree · 29/11/2021 23:58

@Classica

I agree with *@HazelCarbyFan*.

Using 'woke' as a dismissive umbrella term for multiple issues just means people have an excuse not to engage with any of them. Oh I don't like x, y and z 'cos they're woke.

It's the new 'p.c gone mad'.

This
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KerryWeaver · 30/11/2021 00:05

Julie Burchill and her ever repulsive views has always attracted the ignorant.

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KimikosNightmare · 30/11/2021 00:18

@MurielSpriggs

Whatever it's origins, the way "woke" is currently used is the Daily-Express-reactionary equivalent to "political correctness gone mad", and, for those of us old enough to remember it, "the loony left".

I'm old enough to remember the loony left and they were loony. I voted for Labour in those days, but my goodness there were some shockers.

John Smith and Neil Kinnock worked very hard to get rid of the loony left to make Labour electable.
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beastlyslumber · 30/11/2021 00:24

@KerryWeaver

Julie Burchill and her ever repulsive views has always attracted the ignorant.

Bless you Grin
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PurgatoryOfPotholes · 30/11/2021 00:29

This thread seems to have gone in a totally different direction to what I expected when I clicked.

FWIW, I personally prefer pseudo-progressive, and fauxgressive to describe the same outlook.

I feel it articulates my issue better, seeing as they wear the word woke (which, yes, I've been told they adopted from black Americans talking about rasing class consciousness) with pride.

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Seemslikeagoodidea · 30/11/2021 00:31

@Gncq

To insist others stop using a term for a movement that we can all see very clearly in front of our own eyes that is referred to as "woke", is ironically and unbearably woke.

As PP said, how about engage in the harm this movement is causing rather than forcing language control which is what the woke movement is known for.

This.
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Lovelyricepudding · 30/11/2021 00:33

Woke is a term created by Black people to describe the awakening of racial consciousness

Woke is a word that is the past tense for wake. It was appropriated in America for another use but not in the UK. Words and their meanings change and sometimes causes have to drop a word as it has drifted too far - see Spastic Society (now Scope).

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CharlieParley · 30/11/2021 00:45

@HazelCarbyFan

I agree - at first I thought people complaining about “Karen” were merely being dismissive of Black people addressing power dynamics, but after seeing discussions on here, I noticed how it was being used constantly for no reason completely devoid from any meaning. So I stopped using it. Can’t we do the same thing for mindlessly labeling things woke? It’s like neoliberal - it means something but there was a while when it was being applied to so much it became meaningless and became less useful to use as a result.

I do appreciate the dialogue on here. I posted in upset, which I think is fair, and was really annoyed, and some have been hostile, but others, even if disagreeing have been open. I do believe women can talk with each other!

I completely understand where you're coming from. I don't use the word "woke" in that particular way, precisely because it became a word associated with the BLM movement. I prefer either "identity politics" or "critical theories" as a collective word, but many people won't know what exactly that refers to.

I will say that with any word coined in the information age, life cycles are much shorter. The word "woke" didn't even get half a decade's worth of the most recent use before it was considered cool and widely adopted by all kinds of progressives around 2015, but it became especially associated with millenials. And that prompted the ridicule, and the way it is now used to dismiss identity politics.

The word "Karen" is similar in that respect. The subreddit which came out of that man hating on his (ex)wife Karen was in 2017, the subreddit blew up, the (general) Karen memes took off in 2018 and by 2020, Karen was being used to denote a white woman being racist, instead of "Permit Patty" or "BBQ Becky", some of the previous names for such women.

And I guess, because the name went viral to that extent, and it was found to be useful, there's a certain ownership felt in regard to the word by black civil rights activists.

And that feeling is fine in my view, even if we can argue about whether it's justified or not. Especially with memes like that it's the case that they change so quickly, and get used in often very different ways precisely because the internal-using meme-loving public feels they own the meme and can use it however they like.

I think it's important to consider that that's not appropriation, or any kind of -ism. That's the nature of the internet.

I do always want us to be able to have this kind of discourse though. Because otherwise we cannot really hope to understand each other. So I just wanted to say that I appreciate your comments.
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